Game ends with intentional foul

[MD Longhorn]

Logically, it almost HAS to have some time left on the clock. If the foul happened before the horn, you have to put time back on the clock (and as others have said, this is the right thing to do in interest of sportsmanship as well). If the horn happened before the foul, then it almost definitely happened before the shot as well, so you really have no shot or foul.

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

[Adam]

It's easy to picture, though, it happening close enough that the clock runs out and we don't see the clock in time because we're trying to prevent a fight.

[OKREF]

Unless your an airborne shooter, release the ball, while the ball is mid flight the horn goes off, the foul happens before the shooter returns to the floor.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Unless your an airborne shooter, release the ball, while the ball is mid flight the horn goes off, the foul happens before the shooter returns to the floor.

Are you trying to say that doesn't define a "sliver of time"? I didn't say impossible. Just very unlikely, especially when we're talking about an intentional foul - those very often occur before release of the ball or simultaneously.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Are you trying to say that doesn't define a "sliver of time"? I didn't say impossible. Just very unlikely, especially when we're talking about an intentional foul - those very often occur before release of the ball or simultaneously.

Agreed, most do happen prior to a shot.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

It does happen though. I had one a couple of years ago at the end of the 4th quarter of a tie ball game where a player went up for a layup, got hammered and the horn sounded immediately after he got fouled. There was no perceptible amount of time that we could put on with definitive knowledge.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Agreed, most do happen prior to a shot.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Logically, it almost HAS to have some time left on the clock. If the foul happened before the horn, you have to put time back on the clock (and as others have said, this is the right thing to do in interest of sportsmanship as well). If the horn happened before the foul, then it almost definitely happened before the shot as well, so you really have no shot or foul.

It's possible, but unlikely, that the foul occurred in that sliver of time that would have the clock actually running out.

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

[BillyMac]

This thread got me thinking about intentional fouls near the end of the game. I know that an official can only charge intentional fouls, and technical fouls during a dead ball, and that other types of fouls during dead ball period should be ignored.

I'd like to twist around the original situation in this thread. Let's say that Team A is up by two points with a few seconds to go in the fourth period. For some unknown reason (kids do the darnedest things) A1 intentionally fouls B1 by bear hugging B1 (who is not in the act of shooting) as B1 is driving to the basket, but he's a little slow, and the beer hug contact is made a full second after the horn sounds to end the fourth period.

Is the foul charged? If so, is this a technical foul, or an intentional personal foul? It makes a difference because these fouls have different penalties that will dictate who shoots the free throws.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Well, if it was prior to the shot, then the player is only getting 2 FTs.

And, without a monitor, there's no support for putting and arbitrary .3 seconds (or something) on the clock just because you saw the contact an instant before you heard the horn.

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refiator

If the foul wasn't prior to the horn, you wouldn't have a shooting foul, therefore there must be time left on the clock. This has been a POE in Georgia the past couple of years. In the case of a foul called on a last second shot, we do put time back on the clock (most use .3), and never shoot the free throws with the lane cleared.

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then GA is failing to follow the NFHS rule. See my post above.

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

Not according to NFHS standards.

[refiator]

Of course, I am referring to a foul "on the shot"...not an undercut after the release.

[APG]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

Except you can have a foul if the sequence is:

Shot is released before the horn
Horn
Airborne shooter is

There's no rule basis or interpretation that should add time back on the clock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by refiator

I respectfully disagree. As with all rules, we are here to interpret them. The interpretation here is that if the player is fouled in the act of shooting, there must be time on the clock (.1, or .3, or whatever). If there is no time on the clock, then the foul must have occurred after time expired.

See 5.6.2G (last year's book) for an example of the play we are discussing where time is NOT put back on the clock.