Cannot Sub for Guy who Dunks in Pregame?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why is everyone assuming the coach will have a problem with waiting for the proper time to substitute? Is everyone out there dealing with nothing but d!ckhead coaches?

Who's to say subbing the kid too early won't ruffle the feathers of the opposing coach who will want to know why the starting line-up is being changed without penalty?

Not that I should even need to say this, but the OP is in a freaking middle school game. I am not worried in this case what the opposing coach says. In a varsity game, I will likely get the opposing coach's ok before I let the angry coach change his starting lineup. Yes he is angry because his kid just did a very stupid thing and he has no coaching box the entire game. If you think he's not going to be angry (at his player and the situation) you're dreaming.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

What harm is there? The proper time is still before any playing action, so there is zero advantage here. If the coach is going to pitch a fit over whether the sub happens before or after the first free throw, he's going to end up with a seat belt at some point.

I get that the rule says we should wait for the first free throw, but I can't see picking this nit.

Who said anything about pitching a fit. And why do you assume a coach who asks a legitimate question about a rule that is not being enforced properly will eventually get T'd up.

In my experiences, I've found that coaches who have extensive rules knowledge are the least headache.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's how the conversation did go. If you would have read instead of looking for a fight you would have seen that I said I've had this situation exactly once.

Oh then I stand corrected. You had this scenario exactly once and that's how the conversation went, so therefore that's how it would go everywhere. I didn't realize I was in the presence of such greatness. My apologies.

[BillyMac]

If you're on the fence on this one, then just go by the rule. Very little can go wrong when you follow the rules, especially when you have to describe the situation to your assignment commissioner on the phone a few hours later. If you're not on the fence, then just do what you have to do.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you would have read instead of looking for a fight

Because rolling your eyes is a compliment where you come from?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Not that I should even need to say this, but the OP is in a freaking middle school game. I am not worried in this case what the opposing coach says. In a varsity game, I will likely get the opposing coach's ok before I let the angry coach change his starting lineup. Yes he is angry because his kid just did a very stupid thing and he has no coaching box the entire game. If you think he's not going to be angry (at his player and the situation) you're dreaming.

I missed the part of the conversation where it said "what is the rule for MS games". We already know lower level games get adjudicated more leniently than HS Varsity and above. I thought the discussion was about what is the rule and the best way to adjuicate it.

And coaches get mad for many things (I feel like I'm channeling my inner JRut now). So when a coach is down by 20 points in the 3rd quarter and a dumba$$ AC gets whacked for a T, are you going to worry about how angry the coach is?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who said anything about pitching a fit. And why do you assume a coach who asks a legitimate question about a rule that is not being enforced properly will eventually get T'd up.

In my experiences, I've found that coaches who have extensive rules knowledge are the least headache.

"Coach, you're right, by rule he should wait til after the first free throw, but the coach is taking care of a problem for us. I'm not forcing him to wait an irrelevant ten seconds."
If that's going to be a problem, he's not a reasonable coach.

Conversely, "Coach, you can sub right after the first free throw. Meanwhile, feel free to keep him by your bench and chew on him until we beckon the sub in."

I honestly don't see either being a problem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I missed the part of the conversation where it said "what is the rule for MS games". We already know lower level games get adjudicated more leniently than HS Varsity and above. I thought the discussion was about what is the rule and the best way to adjuicate it.

And coaches get mad for many things (I feel like I'm channeling my inner JRut now). So when a coach is down by 20 points in the 3rd quarter and a dumba$$ AC gets whacked for a T, are you going to worry about how angry the coach is?

No, but he's free to sub his AC out if he likes.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I missed the part of the conversation where it said "what is the rule for MS games". We already know lower level games get adjudicated more leniently than HS Varsity and above. I thought the discussion was about what is the rule and the best way to adjuicate it.

And coaches get mad for many things (I feel like I'm channeling my inner JRut now). So when a coach is down by 20 points in the 3rd quarter and a dumba$$ AC gets whacked for a T, are you going to worry about how angry the coach is?

In the middle school games around here I'm lucky they have lineups in the books at game time. So yes I run things differently in middle school games. I said very specifically that what I would do is not going with the rule as written. But as far as game management, I am going to handle that scenario the way I wrote it. I'll admit it isn't by the letter of the rule. Your other scenario is irrelevant, so I won't even speak to it. You missed my entire point, and that's ok. I'm perfectly fine with anyone who does things by the book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Oh then I stand corrected. You had this scenario exactly once and that's how the conversation went, so therefore that's how it would go everywhere. I didn't realize I was in the presence of such greatness. My apologies.

No, you're just in the presense of someone who isn't afraid of coaches and doesn't worry about how angry they are at their players.

Personally, I'm going to start by doing it right. If I get some kind of backlash from the coach only THEN will I consider bending the rules. And when I bend the rule I'll will let the opposing coach know I'm doing so. I'm not going to try to sneak it by him and see if he doesn't notice. And I'll also call my supervisor after the game and let him know what I did.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No, you're just in the presense of someone who isn't afraid of coaches and doesn't worry about how angry they are at their players.

And someone who leaps to conclusions. You assume I am afraid of coaches because of what I wrote. That tells me enough about you.

I am going to let a coach solve a problem in a very productive way that really puts himself at a disadvantage because he's replacing a starting player with a player who would not have started. That puts the other coach at a distinct advantage to start the game. So by allowing that coach to handle that situation in the way he wants and also teach the moron kid a lesson, without intervening in that beautiful process, how exactly am I hurting this wonderful game?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Because rolling your eyes is a compliment where you come from?

My rolling my eyes was in reference to "teaching the kid a lesson". That lesson is being taught whether it comes before or after the free throw so it is irrelavent to which way an official decides to handle the situation.

Folks are acting as if waiting for the first free throw prevents the coach from dealing with the kid. It doesn't prevent the coach from sitting the kid down for the rest of the warm-ups.

I've yet to read from anyone who has had a case where the coach got upset about having to wait. I could make the same argument Snakewells made. Any coach who pitches a fit about that isn't going to last very long once the game starts.

[APG]

Honestly, I think the overwhelming majority of coaches would react in the same manner that BNR is talking about. And if the opposing coach decides to make an issue of this, you have no leg to stand on at all.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

My rolling my eyes was in reference to "teaching the kid a lesson".

This is high school we're talking about. And more importantly, in this scenario, middle school. Far too often I see coaches doing the opposite - allowing kids to behave badly and keeping them in the game because winning is far more important than teaching. In this case, I applaud the coach for teaching that lesson. We can agree to disagree.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

And someone who leaps to conclusions. You assume I am afraid of coaches because of what I wrote. That tells me enough about you.

I am going to let a coach solve a problem ...

What problem needs to be solved? We're not talking about a kid who is committing unsporting acts towards the officials and ruining the game. The kid will be sitting on the bench when the clocks starts. My way doesn't prevent that.

And I never said your way harmed anybody. I just said I'm more likely to get flak from the opposing coach about changing starters than I am going to get from the offending coach for making a sub wait for the first free throw.

So who is jumping to conclusions?