Elbows, revisited

[bob jenkins]

1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")

Very nice summary, Bob...it is now part of my pregame. Thanks!

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Very nice summary, Bob...it is now part of my pregame. Thanks!

Bob did have a nice summary...EXCEPT THE FOLLOWING IS NOT WHAT YOUR STATE OF WASHINGTON IS TEACHING:

Quote from Bob:
(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")

Stationary DOES mean pivoting at the same speed as the hips...if you agree with your State, rockyroad.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

The part in red is what is troublesome (to me). I agree with your summary, but as you can tell, not everyone in my state feels the same. I hope that they include precise penalties in the rules next year.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The part in red is what is troublesome (to me). I agree with your summary, but as you can tell, not everyone in my state feels the same. I hope that they include precise penalties in the rules next year.

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.

1) Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

3) A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.



The NFHS saying any elbow in movement that makes contact above the shoulders should be an intentional foul. My guess is they are obviously trying to cut down on contact to the head, and as a result they want the penalty to be punitive, so the elbows will get down.

[johnny d]

where i come from we are being told moving elbow is minimum intentional foul. doesnt matter if it is basketball play or not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

(Stationary means just that; it does NOT include "pivoting at the same speed as the hips")

This is exactly how it was taught at our preseason clinic.

[Adam]

We were told the following;
Stationary, for this purpose, is an elbow that is moving no faster than the torso in a pivot.

This, we were told, came directly from the NFHS office, and the slide we were shown with that direction had the NFHS logo.

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.

That's the opposite of here. Penalize elbow contact, especially above the shoulders, severely. The idea is to protect the safety of the players.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's the opposite of here. Penalize elbow contact, especially above the shoulders, severely. The idea is to protect the safety of the players.

The impression I got is that they want that, too, but when it's borderline, we should get together and discuss it. I agree with your implication that the way they said it may lead to more hesitation than the NFHS wants.

[OKREF]

I disagree, to me it seems quite clear. If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional, and if excessive We need to determine if intentional or flagrant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I disagree, to me it seems quite clear. If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional, and if excessive We need to determine if intentional or flagrant.

What part do you disagree with?
You don't think my state is teaching it this way, or you don't think they should, or you don't think the NFHS put out that direction.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If the elbow is in motion and it makes contact above the shoulders it is at minimum intentional.

I don't think that's true. Contact by a moving elbow can still be inadvertant. For example, if I jump for a rebound and in returning to the floor, my elbow hits the top of your head, that's not a foul of any kind, even though the elbow is obviously in motion.

They're not concerned with a moving elbow; they're concerned about a swinging elbow (whether it's being swung excessively or not).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

We were told the following;
Stationary, for this purpose, is an elbow that is moving no faster than the torso in a pivot.

This, we were told, came directly from the NFHS office, and the slide we were shown with that direction had the NFHS logo.

Further direction from the state was that if there's any question about which level to charge, to go low and upgrade after we conference.

That is what we were told too.

This is how I understood it...
With the torso speed, common.
Faster than the torso, intentional.
Excessive (slinging them around), flagrant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is what we were told too.

This is how I understood it...
With the torso speed, common.
Faster than the torso, intentional.
Excessive (slinging them around), flagrant.

I would add "sizing up" to excessive. Or, oddly enough, if it's "intentional," it's "flagrant."