Last second catch and shoot ????

[justacoach]

Clock reads .2 seconds. Can someone quote me a rule reference that dictates any try MUST be a tap and not a catch and shoot. I know the cut-off for catch and shoot is .3 sec but I can't find it in Fed rulebook and I'm tired of looking.

Thanks to all for the excellent viewpoints expressed on this board. I have referred a great number of officials to this forum as I consider it a great resource for officials (and coaches) who want to improve their understanding of the rules.

[Dan_ref]

NF 5-2-5
NCAA 4-66-5

Each from the 2002/2003 book

[justacoach]

Had this sitch recently in 12U boys game using Fed rules with regular officials from a local association in northern VA
.2 seconds on clock

we are shooting 2 FT for double bonus

we pulled our players from lane, SO DID DEFENSE...

ref administered ft's (Made both but I was waiting to see if official would call lane violation in case we missed.

Defense is granted TO after 2nd made throw, we are up by 2

Here's where it gets funny...

Ref 1 tries to give throw-in to defense at division line.

I suggested this was not the NBA and after consulting with partner the ball went back to end line.

I then asked him if there was enough time for catch and shoot, or just a tap.

I don't expect an official to volunteer this info but I think I was entitled to some acknowledgement to my legitimate question. I knew the answer but I wanted to make sure my team would not be penalized if we deployed defense against "hail mary pass" into the lane, in the case of a tap, or did we need to challenge any shot?

Based on the lack of response from both officials, we did the latter. Luckily the catch and shoot was not successful.

How would you have responded to my question asking for confirmation of this time-specific rule??

Had the try been successful, what are my chances of winning a protest? I think this is not a judgement call and the rule is designed to eliminate any judgement beside determining if it was a try or tap.


Thanks

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by justacoach
How would you have responded to my question asking for confirmation of this time-specific rule??

I would have told you that a catch and shoot was not possible.

Had the try been successful, what are my chances of winning a protest? I think this is not a judgement call and the rule is designed to eliminate any judgement beside determining if it was a try or tap.

0%. Protests are not allowed under NFHS rules.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by justacoach
Had this sitch recently in 12U boys game using Fed rules with regular officials from a local association in northern VA
.2 seconds on clock

we are shooting 2 FT for double bonus

we pulled our players from lane, SO DID DEFENSE...

ref administered ft's (Made both but I was waiting to see if official would call lane violation in case we missed.

Your post does not make this exactly clear, but if there was not a time-out or intermission before your team shot these free throws, the free throws should never have been administered.
The defense is only allowed to be absent from the bottom two lane spaces if the resuming-play procedure is in effect, which is only after a time-out or intermission. Otherwise, it is an immediate technical foul.
Any quality official will order the defense to fill these two spaces when necessary and only charge a T if the defense refuses to do as asked.
Of course, if you shot the free throws after a TO then the officials did it properly and you also correctly stated that the first miss would have only been a violation, but had you missed on the substitute throw, it would have been a T.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The defense is only allowed to be absent from the bottom two lane spaces if the resuming-play procedure is in effect, which is only after a time-out or intermission. Otherwise, it is an immediate technical foul.

Please cite rule regarding "immediate technical foul".

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Please cite rule regarding "immediate technical foul".

There are two:
4-37 Resuming-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play following a time-out or intermission as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-1. The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for delay in specific situations.
AND
10-1-5b Team Technical
Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-1 for the specific procedure to resume play following a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

There are two:
4-37 Resuming-play procedure is used to prevent delay in putting the ball in play following a time-out or intermission as in 7-5-1 and 8-1-1. The procedure results in a violation instead of a technical foul for delay in specific situations.
AND
10-1-5b Team Technical
Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-1 for the specific procedure to resume play following a time-out or the intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in these specific situations.

You didn't answer Mark's question,Nevada.You stated above that it is an IMMEDIATE technical foul if the defensive team doesn't fill the bottom 2 lane spaces when the resuming play procedure is NOT in effect.Mark asked you to back up that statement with a rules citation.The rules that you cited refer only to when the resuming play procedure IS in effect,and therefore aren't relevant to Mark's question.

The pertinent rules are R9-1-2(which states that it is a violation for the defensive team not to fill the bottom 2 spaces)and R9-1PENALTY2a&b(which gives you the appropriate penalty application for this particular violation).Please note that R9-1PENALTY2a&b says that it is NOT an immediate technical foul as you stated above,which was what Mark was trying to point out to you.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 20th, 2003 at 02:59 AM]

[Mark Padgett]

Thanks, JR. You got my meaning exactly.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You didn't answer Mark's question,Nevada.You stated above that it is an IMMEDIATE technical foul if the defensive team doesn't fill the bottom 2 lane spaces when the resuming play procedure is NOT in effect.Mark asked you to back up that statement with a rules citation.The rules that you cited refer only to when the resuming play procedure IS in effect,and therefore aren't relevant to Mark's question.

The pertinent rules are R9-1-2(which states that it is a violation for the defensive team not to fill the bottom 2 spaces)and R9-1PENALTY2a&b(which gives you the appropriate penalty application for this particular violation).Please note that R9-1PENALTY2a&b says that it is NOT an immediate technical foul as you stated above,which was what Mark was trying to point out to you.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 20th, 2003 at 02:59 AM]

Sorry for not responding more promptly, but I have been down in Las Vegas officiating for the past four days. Great tournament, lots of fun.
As for this discussion, I must disagree with you guys. By JR's last post, I understand your opinion to be that not filling the two bottom lane spaces when the resuming-play procedure is NOT in effect is merely a violation and not a technical foul. I believe exactly the opposite.
The two rules that I quoted above do mention the resuming-play procedure, but they also tell us much more than that, JR. They make it clear that it is a team technical foul to delay the game, since that is the first sentence in 10-1-5b and 4-37 uses the words "instead of a technical foul."

Officials should understand this to be the general case, and take the three specific actions given in 4-46, which first result in a warning, along with the resuming-play procedure (4-37) to be the exceptions to this general rule.

If a team does something to delay the game and it is not after a time-out or intermission, nor is the action one of the three specified in 4-46, by rule 10-5-1b it is an immediate technical foul.

In the play we are discussing the team is delaying the game by not filling the bottom two lane spaces because this prevents the ball from being made promptly live. (Somewhere in one of our NFHS books it says that the officials shall not administer the free throw until the defense is occupying these bottom spaces. I can't seem to find this paragraph now, though. Perhaps someone like Tony who has an electronic copy can locate this.)
Besides the reasoning above, I was also able to find a casebook play that makes it crystal clear that the penalty is a technical foul.

10.1.5 Situation C: The calling official has reported the foul at the table and proceeds to the free throw lane area to administer the first of two free throws awarded to A1. B1 and B2 are: (a) huddling in the lane; or (b) two B players are not occupying the two marked spaces next to the end line as required. Ruling: In (a), if the huddle delays the official's administration, Team B is warned. The warning is recorded by the scorer and reported to the head coach. If Team B had been previously warned for free-throw delay, a technical foul shall be charged. In (b), Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is delay, a technical foul shall be charged to Team B.
Notice that the part in bold is almost exactly what I wrote in my first post in this thread:
"Any quality official will order the defense to fill these two spaces when necessary and only charge a T if the defense refuses to do as asked."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

The pertinent rules are R9-1-2(which states that it is a violation for the defensive team not to fill the bottom 2 spaces)and R9-1PENALTY2a&b(which gives you the appropriate penalty application for this particular violation).Please note that R9-1PENALTY2a&b says that it is NOT an immediate technical foul as you stated above,which was what Mark was trying to point out to you.
[/B][/QUOTE]

10.1.5 Situation C: The calling official has reported the foul at the table and proceeds to the free throw lane area to administer the first of two free throws awarded to A1. B1 and B2 are: (a) huddling in the lane; or (b) two B players are not occupying the two marked spaces next to the end line as required. Ruling: In (a), if the huddle delays the official's administration, Team B is warned. The warning is recorded by the scorer and reported to the head coach. If Team B had been previously warned for free-throw delay, a technical foul shall be charged. In (b), Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is delay, a technical foul shall be charged to Team B.
[/B][/QUOTE]Nevada,the T issued in this caseplay is for refusing to follow the official's explicit instructions.What's the call if you don't direct the B players to fill these slots,and then they don't when the FT is taken?

I'll stick with my answer above. Might be a good idea for you to check with your local rules interpreter on this one too,if you don't believe us.

[Nevadaref]

The T is for causing a delay. That seems clear from the wording of the casebook ruling, and is supported by 10-1-5b.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
What's the call if you don't direct the B players to fill these slots,

If there is a delay, it is a team technical foul.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

and then they don't when the FT is taken?

They will never have that chance because I will T them for delay before I give the ball to the free-thrower. Remember, we are not using resuming-play in this situaion. Someone really needs to find that blurb about the officials shall not administer the free throw while those two spaces are unoccupied. I remember reading it once, maybe in the officials' manual.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Might be a good idea for you to check with your local rules interpreter on this one too,if you don't believe us.

We aren't organized enough out here to have a local rules interpreter. Since I have scored 100 on the test the last two years most of the guys in the association consider me to be the one most knowledgable about the rules and bring their questions to me. Perhaps this guy Howard can be consulted!

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jul 26th, 2003 at 04:44 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Perhaps this guy Howard can be consulted!

"This Guy Howard" reads this board regularly. If he has anything to say, he'll e-mail me or Camron Rust, and we'll post whatever it is. It's usually authoritative but that doesn't mean anyone in your area will use it correctly, but at least you will know the final word!

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Someone really needs to find that blurb about the officials shall not administer the free throw while those two spaces are unoccupied.

I found this.
9.1.2 ...In this case, the trail official uses the resuming-play procedure even though the first spaces are not occupied, whereas in other cases, the spaces would have to be properly occupied before the official would proceed with the free throw administration. ...

Therefore, if these players are not in the bottom spaces, this team is delaying the game by preventing the official from proceeding with the free throw administration. (Making the ball promptly live.) That justifies the team technical foul under 10-1-5b.