fight rule

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

Is it correct that the head coach gets one indirect technical for each player leaving the bench and participating in the fight and a maximum of one indirect technical for players leaving the bench but not participating in the fight?

Example: Players A6, A7, A8 and A9 all leave the bench. Players A6 and A7 participate in the fight. Players A8 and A9 observe. Three indirect technicals to A's head coach and ejection.

Correct.

[Nevadaref]

Unfortunately, the NFHS needs to clarify this section of the rules.

Some areas handle it as your state and Bob interprets, but others will not offset the FTs due to fighters and non-fighters. They are totally separate categories in the rules book and some folks take that as not able to cancel out.

It would be wonderful if the NFHS would issue a clear case play on this.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It would be wonderful if the NFHS would issue a clear case play on this.

Here's a handout from our local board interpreter. It's few years old, but I think that the rules still apply:

FIGHTING - RULE & PENALTIES

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

PLAYERS IN FIGHT:
If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant technical fouls and disqualified from the game. There are no free throws since this is a double foul. Charge each team with one foul toward the bonus and use the alternating possession arrow to resume play unless there is player/team control.

BENCH PERSONNEL:
a. Leave Bench and Participate in Fight
If a player (or players) leaves the bench during a fight and participates in the fight that player (or players) is charged with a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. The head coach is charged with an indirect foul for each player who participates in the fight and is disqualified. A team foul is charged for each disqualified player. If the same number of bench personnel leave the bench, there will no free throws.

b. Leave Bench and Do Not Participate in Fight
If a player (or players) leaves the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out and do not fight, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified. The head coach is charged with ONE indirect foul regardless of the number of offenders. A team foul is charged for each disqualified player.

SITUATIONS

Play #1 - Bench personnel A1, A2 and B1, B2 leave the bench during a fight and only B2 gets into the fight.
Ruling #1 -
-A1, A2, B1, B2 are charged with flagrant technical fouls and disqualified.
-Team A head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul for A1 and A2 leaving the bench.
-Team B head coach is charged with two indirect technical fouls - one for B1 and B2 leaving the bench and one for B2 fighting.
-Team B and Team A are assessed two team fouls each.
-No free throws
-Resume play with throw-in via alternating possession arrow if no player/team control.


Play #2 – A1,A2, A3 and B1,B2,B3 leave the bench and participate in the fight.
Ruling #2 –
-A1,A2, A3,B1,B2,B3 are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
-Team A and Team B head coaches are charged with three indirect technical fouls and disqualified and must leave playing court.
-No free throws are awarded.
-Team A and Team B are each assessed three team fouls
-Resume play via throw-in by team with alternating possession arrow if no player/team control.

Reminders

For Players - Any player(s) who leaves the bench, no matter if they fight or not, are ejected to the bench area, not the locker room. This is a flagrant technical foul on the player(s) and a team foul(s) towards the team total. Example – 3 players leave bench and fight/do not fight. Ruling – 3 player ejections and 3 team fouls.

For Coach – if no fighting by bench personnel; there is only 1 indirect technical foul assessed to coach regardless now many players leave bench and do not fight. Example – 3 players leave bench but do not fight. Ruling – 3 players ejected, 3 team fouls, 1 indirect technical to coach. There is no team foul associated with the indirect technical foul.

For Coach – if fighting by bench personnel; there is an indirect technical foul assessed to coach for EACH player that fights. Example – 3 players leave bench and fight. Ruling – 3 players ejected, 3 team fouls, 3 indirect technical fouls to coach resulting in coach ejection. There are no team fouls associated with the indirect technical foul.

Coaches –
- if head coach leaves bench to help stop the fight, you beckoned head coach;
- if assistant coach(es) leaves the bench, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
- the head coach is assessed an indirect technical foul for every flagrant foul assessed to an assistant coach(es).

[deecee]

We were always taught in my previous area that each set are treated completely different.

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This way we track 3 sets of T's and administer each accordingly as in which ever team has an uneven number for each set shoots.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by deecee

We were always taught in my previous area that each set are treated completely different.

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This way we track 3 sets of T's and administer each accordingly as in which ever team has an uneven number for each set shoots.

Can you then have FT's at each end? I like the idea of "you should never shoot FT's at both ends of the court" I'm an accountant and that way I get to add up the FT's awarded, cancel out and only administer the remainder. Then draw a double line under my totals and call it balanced!

A confusing issue is that all T's (concerning bench personnel) are not necessarily awarded FT's. (penalties 10-8) By that nature, I don't think it is as easy as adding up the T's or players and then calculating FT's.

I completely agree that each "set" mentioned above are treated differently. But I don't think the rule is written that simply. There is still the application of indirects appiled to HC. I am not sure that "whichever team has an uneven number . . . shoots" is correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

We were always taught in my previous area that each set are treated completely different.

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This way we track 3 sets of T's and administer each accordingly as in which ever team has an uneven number for each set shoots.

So then which would you shoot first? Who gets the ball?

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Adam

Who gets the ball?

BillyMac's handout explains things pretty well. But . . . the idea of "AP unless there is Team Control" as the answer to whom gets possession is worded poorly. As I undertand it, it is always POI. If there is no definitive POI, AP is the correct choice. As I've heard it said many times before, AP is almost never the right answer.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Adam

So then which would you shoot first? Who gets the ball?

we would shoot the team that wasnt going to be getting the ball first. and the team that got the ball would be whichever team had fewer total T's.

I like the no shooting on both sides much better.

[ronny mulkey]

Another debated topic is that GHSA advises officials to not separate the players - "don't grab the players" once the melee starts. Does your association or State have different advise on this topic?

[Adam]

Let's mix it up a bit.

Fight begins with a live ball Flagrant personal foul by B1.

After he gets up, A1 punches B1. A2 then shoves B1. A6, A7, and B8 come off the bench and fight. B12 comes off the bench.but doesn't fight.

[refiator]

Originally Posted by deecee

The players on court fighting is one set.
Players leaving and not fighting is another.
Players leaving and fighting is another.

This is a great rule of thumb along with Ronny's "Never shoot FT on both ends of the court"

I agree that NFHS really needs to address this with better casebook plays. GHSA has thrown a few things our way that has caused some confusion among officials.

[bob jenkins]

Case 10.4.5A (c) and10.4.5E make it clear to me.

In both cases, FTs for players leaving the bench and FTs for players leaving and fighting offset resulting in no FTs overall.

[Scratch85]

I thought I had this figured out but now . . . not sure.

A6 enters the court but does not fight = one indirect to HC
A6 enters the court and participates in fight = one indirect to HC
A6 and A7 enter the court and do not fight = one indirect to HC
A6 and A7 enter the court, A6 fights and A7 does not = two indirect to HC
A6 and B6 enter the court, A6 fights and B6 does not = one indirect to each HC

Are the above statements correct?