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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 11:41am
Ok is the new good
 
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Swing da elbows

Swinging of the elbows is a POE this year and I know there have been posts on the topic.

But let me ask this very simplistic question:

Is the swinging of elbows ever allowed without a violation or foul being called?

Under what circumstances?

Thanks!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 11:47am
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If you mean "excessively swinging" (as defined in the book), and asuming a live ball, then it's illegal and (supposed to be) called.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 11:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Swinging of the elbows is a POE this year and I know there have been posts on the topic.

But let me ask this very simplistic question:

Is the swinging of elbows ever allowed without a violation or foul being called?

Under what circumstances?

Thanks!
Hmm, consider this ... would you allow any other type of violation (i.e., travel, illegal dribble, etc)?
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
If you mean "excessively swinging" (as defined in the book), and asuming a live ball, then it's illegal and (supposed to be) called.
Hi Bob,

What about an elbow swing that is not excessive, say just one swing to clear out space. Also, let assume that no contact is made.

Anything called under those circumstances?

Thanks Much!
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:02pm
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Actually "Contact above the shoulders" is the POE, but the rulebook mentions several areas where this can take place and references this potential violation.

I would say I treat this differently when people are directly around than are out in the open by themselves or teammates. After all this is a judgment call and what is "excessive" to one official might be normal to another. This is also very rare anymore but if you see it, I would suggest call it.

Peace
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Hi Bob,

What about an elbow swing that is not excessive, say just one swing to clear out space. Also, let assume that no contact is made.

Anything called under those circumstances?

Thanks Much!
Does the definition of "excessive" include a reference to the number of times the elbow is swung ("just one swing")?

I've found it helpful to consider that an elbow may be in three states: 1) Stationary; 2) Moving; 3) Excessively Swinging.

Different rules, judgments and penalties apply to different states.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Hi Bob,

What about an elbow swing that is not excessive, say just one swing to clear out space. Also, let assume that no contact is made.

Anything called under those circumstances?

Thanks Much!
By definition, if the elbows are moving faster than the torso, the swinging is excessive; even if only done once. And, IMHO, especially if done to clear out space.

1) If the player is pivoting with wide elbows, this is not excessive; and if no contact occurs, no violation has been committed.

2) If the player is pivoting with wide elbows, this is not excessive; but if contact occurs, you have to use your judgment as to whether a foul has been committed.

3) If the player swings the elbows faster than the torso, this is excessive; if no contact occurs, it is a violation and the ball is dead immediately (with some exceptions).

4) If the player swings the elbows faster than the torso, this is excessive; if contact occurs, a foul has been committed and you must use your judgment as to whether the foul is common, intentional, or flagrant.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrapper1 View Post
by definition, if the elbows are moving faster than the torso, the swinging is excessive; even if only done once. And, imho, especially if done to clear out space.
+1
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 02:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
By definition, if the elbows are moving faster than the torso, the swinging is excessive; even if only done once. And, IMHO, especially if done to clear out space.
Exactly how it has always been explained to me

-Josh
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Hi Bob,

What about an elbow swing that is not excessive, say just one swing to clear out space. Also, let assume that no contact is made.

Anything called under those circumstances?

Thanks Much!
One swing, with a purpose (i.e. "to clear out space") is exactly what the rule is intended to stop.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
One swing, with a purpose (i.e. "to clear out space") is exactly what the rule is intended to stop.
Also, perhaps, to intimidate others when space is there in order to demonstrate to those who might be tempted to dare to contend with the elbow-swinger what'll happen if any challenge to his rebounding or ball-handling skills takes place.
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Old Mon Oct 15, 2012, 09:23pm
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i am calling the violation or foul on any play i judge to be excessive. when i first started doing college ball, people were swing elbows all the time. since the new rules came into effect, this rarely happens. if it is called the same way and with same vigilance as at the college level, swinging elbows will be almost completely eliminated from the hs game as well.
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Old Tue Oct 16, 2012, 10:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
By definition, if the elbows are moving faster than the torso, the swinging is excessive; even if only done once. And, IMHO, especially if done to clear out space.

1) If the player is pivoting with wide elbows, this is not excessive; and if no contact occurs, no violation has been committed.

2) If the player is pivoting with wide elbows, this is not excessive; but if contact occurs, you have to use your judgment as to whether a foul has been committed.

3) If the player swings the elbows faster than the torso, this is excessive; if no contact occurs, it is a violation and the ball is dead immediately (with some exceptions).

4) If the player swings the elbows faster than the torso, this is excessive; if contact occurs, a foul has been committed and you must use your judgment as to whether the foul is common, intentional, or flagrant.
^This....
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