Blood and free throws

[hoopguy]

Just saw this incident recently and it got me to thinking. Player A receives a pass underneath the basket and player B who is behind player A fouls player A so hard he gets knocked down hard to the ground landing on his front with his elbow contacting the court hard enough to cause bleeding. The foul would definitely qualify for an intentional foul and potentially a flagrant.

First thought about the flagrant... What would be the correct mechanics in reporting this if calling a flagrant personal foul? Do I signal the X and then when I report speak to coach and inform him that player B has been disqualified due to the flagrant personal foul? Do I inform the player at the spot that he has committed a flagrant personal foul? Is this the type of foul where you would sell the call at the spot? Does anyone use the baseball ump ‘your outa here’ signal?

Second, about the blood. I believe in this situation, I would give player A as much time and medical help as is needed to stop the bleeding so that he could shoot the free throws. Would this be correct by rule?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

Just saw this incident recently and it got me to thinking. Player A receives a pass underneath the basket and player B who is behind player A fouls player A so hard he gets knocked down hard to the ground landing on his front with his elbow contacting the court hard enough to cause bleeding. The foul would definitely qualify for an intentional foul and potentially a flagrant.

First thought about the flagrant... What would be the correct mechanics in reporting this if calling a flagrant personal foul? Do I signal the X and then when I report speak to coach and inform him that player B has been disqualified due to the flagrant personal foul? Do I inform the player at the spot that he has committed a flagrant personal foul? Is this the type of foul where you would sell the call at the spot? Does anyone use the baseball ump ‘your outa here’ signal?

Second, about the blood. I believe in this situation, I would give player A as much time and medical help as is needed to stop the bleeding so that he could shoot the free throws. Would this be correct by rule?

If you are calling a flagrant personal foul, you would never signal the X. X is for an intentional foul, not a personal foul. And there is no signal for an ejection, other than to verbalize it.

I would verbalize flagrant foul at the spot, and I wouldn't necessarily directly tell the player being ejected that s/he's gone. When reporting the foul to the table, I would report a flagrant foul and that the player is disqualified from further participation in that game.

I can't think of a rule that allows us for the foulee to be treated for the blood and remain in the game, except for using a timeout and having the foulee ready to play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If you are calling a flagrant personal foul, you would never signal the X. X is for an intentional foul, not a personal foul. And there is no signal for an ejection, other than to verbalize it.

Intentional fouls can be either personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball).
I can see X'ing a play like this & then upgrading it to a flagrant personal foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Intentional fouls can be either personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball).
I can see X'ing a play like this & then upgrading it to a flagrant personal foul.

Agreed, there's no mechanic for flagrant, but an X works well, followed by a table report. I would treat the notifications similar to a normal DQ. Partner, table, coach, player (if the player isn't already sitting on the bench).

[SmokeEater]

I like the FIBA signal for disqualification. Think of a made three only keep your arms bent a bit and fists closed. \0/

Or as one of my partners likes to say its the "Yes, he's outta here signal."

[JeroenB]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I like the FIBA signal for disqualification. Think of a made three only keep your arms bent a bit and fists closed. \0/

Or as one of my partners likes to say its the "Yes, he's outta here signal."

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JeroenB

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

IIRC< FIBA mechanics are based on the idea that the participants may be speaking different languages and that everything needs a signal. It is possible that the referee doesn't speak the same language as anyone else.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeroenB

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

I don't think it's necessary. The only people I care about are the coaches and the table in this instance.

I like the X because it lets the coaches know you're on top of it, which is good in an escalated situation. You can then tell them at the table (and I would likely pull both coaches in so I don't have to say it twice) that little Mr. Lydell has been DQd.

[JetMetFan]

In the NCAA using the Flagrant 1 signal (arms crossed over the head) could work in this situation since you can always upgrade a Flagrant 1 to a Flagrant 2.

In NFHS - IMO - I think giving the Flagrant signal would create confusion for all involved, especially for the coach who is losing a player. A very loud "Flagrant on #XX Red!" at the spot should do the job and just repeat it while administering the foul.

As far as the shooter is concerned, Team A has a short menu (NFHS 3-3/NCAA 3-4):
*Put in a sub for A1
*Call time out and deal with the blood. If A1 is ready to play at the end of the time out he/she can shoot the FTs.

Under NFHS rules Team A would have to call time out before the replacement interval (i.e., 20 secs to sub) begins. Under NCAA rules Team A can call time out after the replacement interval ends.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

In the NCAA using the Flagrant 1 signal (arms crossed over the head) could work in this situation since you can always upgrade a Flagrant 1 to a Flagrant 2.

In NFHS - IMO - I think giving the Flagrant signal would create confusion for all involved, especially for the coach who is losing a player. A very loud "Flagrant on #XX Red!" at the spot should do the job and just repeat it while administering the foul.

As far as the shooter is concerned, Team A has a short menu (NFHS 3-3/NCAA 3-4):
*Put in a sub for A1
*Call time out and deal with the blood. If A1 is ready to play at the end of the time out he/she can shoot the FTs.

Under NFHS rules Team A would have to call time out before the replacement interval (i.e., 20 secs to sub) begins. Under NCAA rules Team A can call time out after the replacement interval ends.

What confusion? For using the Intentional Foul signal? Color me skeptical.

As for what to do with the shooter. I agree, but I'm giving the coach a bit of leeway here, and I can't imagine ever needing to use the 20 second interval on this.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

What confusion? For using the Intentional Foul signal? Color me skeptical.

As for what to do with the shooter. I agree, but I'm giving the coach a bit of leeway here, and I can't imagine ever needing to use the 20 second interval on this.

Confusion because if that coach seen intentional then you tell him/her the player was tossed they're most likely going to say "But you called it intentional!"

As for the shooter, what happens if you're lucky enough that Team B's coach is aware of the blood substitution procedure for that situation? I'm not saying run A1 off the court but what's the definition of "leeway"?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Confusion because if that coach seen intentional then you tell him/her the player was tossed they're most likely going to say "But you called it intentional!"

As for the shooter, what happens if you're lucky enough that Team B's coach is aware of the blood substitution procedure for that situation? I'm not saying run A1 off the court but what's the definition of "leeway"?

Regarding the confusion; I don't think he'd be too confused. If he questions it, I'll just say, "Nope, I *signaled* intentional, but I called flagrant.

As for whether the B coach wants to question how much time I've given to A1 to get the blood taken care of, I really don't care what he thinks. His player caused the situation.

By "leeway," I'm not talking about giving him three minutes, but if they can take care of it while I'm reporting the foul and confirming with the table the foul count and checking on the score and ask the scorer where he got his shiny new shirt and (I think you get the point), I'm not going to make them burn a TO.

[Rich]

Billy, this is a new day for the OfficialForum. Off topic videos and images (other than an occasional, appropriate use of the squirrel) are likely going to be deleted. Eventually, one of us will get annoyed having to do this repeatedly and will issue a bit of a suspension. Keep that in mind.

While I like fun as much as the next guy, one of the improvements the new moderator team hopes to bring to the site is a bit higher signal-to-noise ratio.

If anyone has any thoughts about that (positive or negative), please feel free to send me or any of the other moderators a private message.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

Off topic videos and images (other than an occasional, appropriate use of the squirrel) are likely going to be deleted. One of the improvements the new moderator team hopes to bring to the site is a bit higher signal-to-noise ratio.

Sounds good to me. I will try to abide by the new rules, but, hopefully the moderators will be patient as I "wind down" over the next few weeks.

The Family Guy "You are outta here" video was well off topic and probably deserved to be deleted, however, the classic baseball umpire "You are gone" video was a video worth keeping on the Forum because it compared the mechanics (signals) of an ejection in a basketball game with the mechanics (signal) of an ejection in a baseball game, which is why I posted it, whereas The Family Guy video was just for laughs.

Also, I certainly hope that exceptions will be made for Mark Padgett once he returns. Even the evening news, with all the bad news, has to have a "feel good" story at the end.

[Adam]

For the record, we're all on the same page.