Blood and free throws

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

Just saw this incident recently and it got me to thinking. Player A receives a pass underneath the basket and player B who is behind player A fouls player A so hard he gets knocked down hard to the ground landing on his front with his elbow contacting the court hard enough to cause bleeding. The foul would definitely qualify for an intentional foul and potentially a flagrant.

First thought about the flagrant... What would be the correct mechanics in reporting this if calling a flagrant personal foul? Do I signal the X and then when I report speak to coach and inform him that player B has been disqualified due to the flagrant personal foul? Do I inform the player at the spot that he has committed a flagrant personal foul? Is this the type of foul where you would sell the call at the spot? Does anyone use the baseball ump ‘your outa here’ signal?

Second, about the blood. I believe in this situation, I would give player A as much time and medical help as is needed to stop the bleeding so that he could shoot the free throws. Would this be correct by rule?

If you are calling a flagrant personal foul, you would never signal the X. X is for an intentional foul, not a personal foul. And there is no signal for an ejection, other than to verbalize it.

I would verbalize flagrant foul at the spot, and I wouldn't necessarily directly tell the player being ejected that s/he's gone. When reporting the foul to the table, I would report a flagrant foul and that the player is disqualified from further participation in that game.

I can't think of a rule that allows us for the foulee to be treated for the blood and remain in the game, except for using a timeout and having the foulee ready to play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If you are calling a flagrant personal foul, you would never signal the X. X is for an intentional foul, not a personal foul. And there is no signal for an ejection, other than to verbalize it.

Intentional fouls can be either personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball).
I can see X'ing a play like this & then upgrading it to a flagrant personal foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Intentional fouls can be either personal (live ball) or technical (dead ball).
I can see X'ing a play like this & then upgrading it to a flagrant personal foul.

Agreed, there's no mechanic for flagrant, but an X works well, followed by a table report. I would treat the notifications similar to a normal DQ. Partner, table, coach, player (if the player isn't already sitting on the bench).

[SmokeEater]

I like the FIBA signal for disqualification. Think of a made three only keep your arms bent a bit and fists closed. \0/

Or as one of my partners likes to say its the "Yes, he's outta here signal."

[JeroenB]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I like the FIBA signal for disqualification. Think of a made three only keep your arms bent a bit and fists closed. \0/

Or as one of my partners likes to say its the "Yes, he's outta here signal."

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JeroenB

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

IIRC< FIBA mechanics are based on the idea that the participants may be speaking different languages and that everything needs a signal. It is possible that the referee doesn't speak the same language as anyone else.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

IIRC< FIBA mechanics are based on the idea that the participants may be speaking different languages and that everything needs a signal. It is possible that the referee doesn't speak the same language as anyone else.

Actually English is the official language of FIBA. I believe every team must have an english speaking member. All Officials speak english, some just don't have the best grasp of it.

Correction. There are five official languages in FIBA, but English is the language used during the Technical Meetings. Other languages are French, Spanish, Russian and German.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JeroenB

I always wondered why HS/College basketball officials don't have an ejection/disqualification signal like FIBA refs do. Seems to me that you want it to be clear for everyone when you're tossing someone, right?

I don't think it's necessary. The only people I care about are the coaches and the table in this instance.

I like the X because it lets the coaches know you're on top of it, which is good in an escalated situation. You can then tell them at the table (and I would likely pull both coaches in so I don't have to say it twice) that little Mr. Lydell has been DQd.

[JetMetFan]

In the NCAA using the Flagrant 1 signal (arms crossed over the head) could work in this situation since you can always upgrade a Flagrant 1 to a Flagrant 2.

In NFHS - IMO - I think giving the Flagrant signal would create confusion for all involved, especially for the coach who is losing a player. A very loud "Flagrant on #XX Red!" at the spot should do the job and just repeat it while administering the foul.

As far as the shooter is concerned, Team A has a short menu (NFHS 3-3/NCAA 3-4):
*Put in a sub for A1
*Call time out and deal with the blood. If A1 is ready to play at the end of the time out he/she can shoot the FTs.

Under NFHS rules Team A would have to call time out before the replacement interval (i.e., 20 secs to sub) begins. Under NCAA rules Team A can call time out after the replacement interval ends.