DoG on Inbound throw-in

[Multiple Sports]

OK just for kicks..........

If I reach across the plane AND touch the ball, "BY RULE"...........didn't I violate first.........

[tref]

Although I agree with calling this as it is written (at the varsity level & up) the following is BS!

Originally Posted by zm1283

This is the stuff coaches complain about, and I think in this case, rightly so.


If everyone would just call it like it is written, we would hear less crap as a group.

I highly doubt it, for the majority, they want it called consistently... in their favor that is.

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

OK just for kicks..........

If I reach across the plane AND touch the ball, "BY RULE"...........didn't I violate first.........

I believe theres a caseplay to support calling the T/INT over the initial violation.
I'm quite sure a good official like yourself knows how to talk em out of silly infractions though

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports

OK just for kicks..........

If I reach across the plane AND touch the ball, "BY RULE"...........didn't I violate first.........

I swing my elbow and clock you in the face. Didn't I violate first?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Honestly you cannot speak for everyone here, but I have not seen a player at the high school level even get close to a technical or intentional foul on a throw-in. The times when I have had to actually call this were a middle school and below and that was early in my career.

Peace

I think I have given two technicals for slapping the ball while the thrower had it in his hands. Both were obvious and couldn't and shouldn't have been ignored.

Apparently you have not seen how bad some of the basketball is in places far from you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I think I have given two technicals for slapping the ball while the thrower had it in his hands. Both were obvious and couldn't and shouldn't have been ignored.

Apparently you have not seen how bad some of the basketball is in places far from you.

In high school games?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I think I have given two technicals for slapping the ball while the thrower had it in his hands. Both were obvious and couldn't and shouldn't have been ignored.

Apparently you have not seen how bad some of the basketball is in places far from you.

There is bad basketball everywhere and I see a lot of it during every season. A lot of very bad coached teams I will see every season as well.

But you said that this was ignored as if that it was only not being called because people decided not to call this violation of the rules. I just do not work a lot of basketball where this is even an issue. And I think it is more the case because older players know better, than how well coached they are.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I swing my elbow and clock you in the face. Didn't I violate first?

Not a valid comparison.

It is still a foul, a technical foul specifically, to clock someone in the face with an elbow even during a dead ball.

However, there is nothing illegal about contacting a ball that is dead.

That, of course, is not to say that the case play on this topic is wrong.....just that your example doesn't work.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not a valid comparison.

It is still a foul, a technical foul specifically, to clock someone in the face with an elbow even during a dead ball.

However, there is nothing illegal about contacting a ball that is dead.

That, of course, is not to say that the case play on this topic is wrong.....just that your example doesn't work.

I follow your argument, but don't agree with it.
However, this is a good exercise in criticial/logical thinking, so...to follow your lead, let me alter my example and ask further questions of you.

1. While A1 is holding a live ball inbounds near the FT line, A2 and B2 are battling for position near the basket. B2 excessively swings his arms/elbows and strikes A2 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. Excessive arm/elbow swinging violation with a technical foul for intentional/flagrant dead ball contact.
b. A common personal foul or an intentional/flagrant personal foul.

2. During a throw-in while A4 is holding the ball out-of-bounds, B4 steps across the boundary plane and punches A4 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. A breaking the plane violation by Team B and a dead ball flagrant technical foul.
b. A flagrant personal foul.

In both cases, who may attempt the FTs is different depending upon your answer, so this does matter and must be clearly covered by the rules.

I hope that you find these examples more satisfactory for comparison to MS's line of thinking.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I follow your argument, but don't agree with it.
However, this is a good exercise in criticial/logical thinking, so...to follow your lead, let me alter my example and ask further questions of you.

1. While A1 is holding a live ball inbounds near the FT line, A2 and B2 are battling for position near the basket. B2 excessively swings his arms/elbows and strikes A2 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. Excessive arm/elbow swinging violation with a technical foul for intentional/flagrant dead ball contact.
b. A common personal foul or an intentional/flagrant personal foul.

2. During a throw-in while A4 is holding the ball out-of-bounds, B4 steps across the boundary plane and punches A4 in the face. How are you penalizing this action?
a. A breaking the plane violation by Team B and a dead ball flagrant technical foul.
b. A flagrant personal foul.

In both cases, who may attempt the FTs is different depending upon your answer, so this does matter and must be clearly covered by the rules.

I hope that you find these examples more satisfactory for comparison to MS's line of thinking.

Both good points.

However, in #1, the elbow violation is still a judgement call. So, you could easily ignore it, and be within the rules, and then call a personal foul of any type. There is also nothing in the rules that says you can't call the swing and then call the contact as a T. So, there is no rules justification for saying either one is the right call over the other one. There may be interpretations or philosophies that direct us to call it as a live ball foul, but it isn't required in the rules. Breaking the plane, on the other hand, is black/white, no judgement needed. They player either crossed the line or they didn't.

#2 is a much better example IMHO. (While that opens up the rules conflict where a punch is defined as a fight and a fight is declared to be a technical foul while live ball contact is defined as a personal foul, I'm going to ignore that issue). We do have a case play that says if it is one act, to treat it as the most severe of the possibilities. However, if it is clearly two actions, where B steps across the line and then in a 2nd movement, punched A4, I've got a plane violation and then a T. If, however, B4 swings from inbounds and through the plane and connecting in one motion, I have a flagrant T....per the case play directing us to treat one action as one infraction of the more severe type.

[Adam]

Camron, in the case where you'd call a violation followed by a T, would you be ok with two Ts if there had already been a DOG warning?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Camron, in the case where you'd call a violation followed by a T, would you be ok with two Ts if there had already been a DOG warning?

I would not.....but even if I were, the first one would be a team T with the 2nd being an individual T.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is bad basketball everywhere and I see a lot of it during every season. A lot of very bad coached teams I will see every season as well.

But you said that this was ignored as if that it was only not being called because people decided not to call this violation of the rules. I just do not work a lot of basketball where this is even an issue. And I think it is more the case because older players know better, than how well coached they are.

Peace

I'm not talking about you or probably anyone else on this board. I have had conversations with other guys in my area that have told me they won't call various things, and this is one of the ones I have heard. I'm not saying everyone ignores it, I'm saying that some ignore it. Take that how you want.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In high school games?

One was a JV game, I'm pretty sure the other was a Varsity game. It has been a few years.

[Adam]

Ok, I don't think two incidents really contradicts Rut's main point here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I have had conversations with other guys in my area that have told me they won't call various things, and this is one of the ones I have heard.

I won't call a multiple foul. Everything else is up to the players, and coaches, and is fair game for me to call.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by zm1283

...guys in my area that have told me they won't call various things...

If there were a LIKE button here I would not click on it.