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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 03:26pm
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Kicked ball on inbound throw in

Question about time running when the inbound throw in ends with a kicked ball. This will pertain to the correctable error time limit.

A1 is fouled and should have been merited a 1+1 free throw. Instead was given the ball out of bounds. On the inbounds pass, the ball is kicked before being legally touched inbounds and a violation occurs.

NFHS rules says the inbound pass ends when the ball is touched by a player. (It doesn't say legally touched). It also says that a kicked ball violation makes the ball dead when the violation occurs.

So, if the clock operator started the clock and stopped it immediately, does this constitute "proper time" running off the clock.

To finish the scenario, after the kicked ball, the official places the ball at the disposal of the thrower, then is notified that he should have received the free throws.

By rule, is it too late or not?
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 05:44pm
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NFHS rule 4-9-4 says that the clock should be started on the throw-in when the ball touches or is touched by a player. It doesn't say "legally" touched, just touched.

By rule, the error for the missed 1/1 can be corrected until the end of the first dead ball after the clock started. The ball became live on the throw-in for the kicked ball violation as soon as it was handed to or placed at the disposal of the thrower- rule 6-1-2(b). Iow, yup, it's too late by rule to correct the error at that time.

Note rule 5-9-1 also says that it doesn't matter either whether the official signalled "clock start" on the kicked-ball throw-in or not. The timer is authorized to start the clock using 4-9-4 without having any signal from the official.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 05:47pm
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I would say both situations are correctable. You have to correct it before the first dead ball becomes live after the clock properly starts. So if the ball is merely at the disposal of the inbounder, the clock has not started; therefore, it's still correctable.

If the ball is inbounded and kicked, the ball is dead immediately due to the kick. My interpretation would be that the clock should not have started. (So even if the clock operator started and stopped the clock, it wasn't properly started.)

So go ahead and correct the error in both situations.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 05:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
NFHS rule 4-9-4 says that the clock should be started on the throw-in when the ball touches or is touched by a player.
Typo. S/b 5-9-4.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 05:51pm
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While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO. If the player receiving the pass were standing OOB when he touched the ball, we would not start the clock, would we? This is the same situation. The touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, just as if he were OOB.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 06:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO. If the player receiving the pass were standing OOB when he touched the ball, we would not start the clock, would we? This is the same situation. The touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, just as if he were OOB.
I have to disagree with you, Chuck. It's not the same situation. The rule says the clock starts when the ball is touched by a player ON THE COURT, which is defined as being inbounds. I agree that the clock should not start until the ball is legally touched on the floor but that's not what the rule says.

In your example where the clock doesn't start when the pass is touched by a player OOB, the clock doesn't start because THE PLAYER IS NOT ON THE COURT. That's the difference in the two plays.

5-9-4
If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

Once the ball is handed to the thrower after the kick, the ball is live and it's too late to correct.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 06:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
While JR's rule citation says that the clock should start on the touch, the clock can't start if the touch causes the ball to be dead immediately, IMO.
I disagree.

The the clock should start on the touch, not on the legal touch.

Whether or not time actually comes off the clock in this sitch is irrelevant IMO. It's certainly possible that the operator started & stopped the clock quickly enough to prevent a second from coming off.

BTW, I can't help but comment on the death of the evil mass murderer pig zarqawi. This world is a less repugnant place now that the pig is dead. To me it was disappointing that he probably had no idea what was about to happen to him until he found himself covered in rubble & his own blood. Recent reports that he lived long enough to die as he tried to roll himself off the stretcher being carried by uniformed US soldiers certainly makes me feel better.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
In your example where the clock doesn't start when the pass is touched by a player OOB, the clock doesn't start because THE PLAYER IS NOT ON THE COURT. That's the difference in the two plays.

5-9-4
If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.
Under throw-in provisions, it says, "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bound so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched." (9-2-2)

That player OOB apparently is on the court.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 07:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Under throw-in provisions, it says, "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bound so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched." (9-2-2)

That player OOB apparently is on the court.
According to rules 1-1&2 and 4-9-2, the player who is OOB is not on the court.
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 08:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
According to rules 1-1&2 and 4-9-2, the player who is OOB is not on the court.
Well, according to 9-2-2, he is. So now what?
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Old Fri Jun 09, 2006, 09:03pm
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9-2-2 is addressing the fact that the ball must touch another player before the thrower can touch it. It has nothing to do with the definition of the court. The "OOB" potion of the rule is meant to address who commits the violation and where the spot will be for B. It's a matter of who violates, the thrower or his teammate. Poorly written? Yes. A redefining of court? No.

The rules below address the court and nothing in either of them address the OOB area as being part of it. 4-13 makes it very clear that only the inbounds area is the court.

1-1
The playing court shall be a rectangular surface free from obstructions and with dimensions not greater than 94 feet in length by 50 feet in width. IDEAL MEASUREMENTS ARE: High School Age – 84 by 50 feet. These are the dimensions for the playing court only.

1-2-1
The playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended court diagram.

4-13
The frontcourt of a team consists of that part of the court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of the backboard.

The backcourt of a team consists of the rest of the court, including the entire division line and the opponent's basket and inbounds part of the opponent's backboard.

I think you're going to lose this one, partner.
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Old Wed Jun 14, 2006, 03:08am
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My thoughts:
1. The playing court is the inbounds area. The court includes both the inbounds and out of bounds areas used by the players to play the game. For example, the space out of bounds used to make throw-ins is part of the court which is marked with sidelines and endlines. (Perhaps the NFHS will disagree and clarify, but for now that's my opinion.)

2. The NFHS timing rule for a throw-in just says touched while the NCAA specifies legally touched.

3. I have the clock starting in an NFHS game on both plays. (The first touch being a kick and the first touch being made by an OOB player.) I have the clock NOT starting in an NCAA game. Just another difference.

4. I formulated some of this opinion due to the thread about the throw-in/timing snafu.
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