When FC/BC status begins

[johnny d]

without question, rules knowledge is absolutely essential to officiate basketball, but so is knowing how and when to apply those rules. i dont think it would help one's career to nitpick things as described in this thread.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

snaq, you make my point exactly, 99.9% of time this is a no call. of course there are going to be exceptions such as the one you pointed out, but that is not the situation described. as described this play is 100% of the time a play on, there is no point in this situation to try to determine if the first batting of the ball to start initial dribble constituted control or not. nobody in their right mind would call this a bc violation, nor would any sane coach or assignment guy expect such a call to be made.

I think this play is also useful to discuss the whole question of when a dribble begins. We've had a lengthy discussion on whether an illegal dribble violation should be called when a player (having already used his dribble) pushes the ball toward the floor but it's intercepted by a defender before it returns to his hand.

Those who claim this is a violation (and not a play-on) should call the OP a BC violation, as PC starts immediately once the player's dribble has begun. If his first push (or bat) is the start of his dribble, then it happens while he has FC status, meaning the dribble hitting the division line is a BC violation.

[billyu2]

As Nevadaref said, "a player cannot have player control by merely touching (batting, slapping or tapping) a pass." CB 4.15 COMMENT seems to cover this play. Since it was mentioned the ball was never caught then the pass must have been batted or allowed to rebound off the hand which does not constitute player control, therefore no violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by billyu2

As Nevadaref said, "a player cannot have player control by merely touching (batting, slapping or tapping) a pass." CB 4.15 COMMENT seems to cover this play. Since it was mentioned the ball was never caught then the pass must have been batted or allowed to rebound off the hand which does not constitute player control, therefore no violation.

Agreed. In this case the initial bat does not define a dribble until it strikes the floor and subsequently remains in control of the player making the steal.

I see this as totally different than the player who has ended a dribble, then pushes the ball toward the floor, intending to start another, even if it strikes something else instead.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Agreed. In this case the initial bat does not define a dribble until it strikes the floor and subsequently remains in control of the player making the steal.

I see this as totally different than the player who has ended a dribble, then pushes the ball toward the floor, intending to start another, even if it strikes something else instead.

I'm not sure how it's different, but it's possible I'm missing something. The rule is the same whether starting the dribble with a push or a bat. Further, a player dribbling a live ball is in player control.

If anything, it seems to me the OP is even more likely a violation than the second dribble scenario. One could argue that the second dribble isn't judged a dribble until the offensive player hits it again; but one cannot argue that player control starts at any point after the dribble begins. So, even if you don't judge it a dribble until it hits the floor and returns to the dribbler; it seems pretty clear that once the dribble does, player control will have started at the bat.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure how it's different, but it's possible I'm missing something. The rule is the same whether starting the dribble with a push or a bat. Further, a player dribbling a live ball is in player control.

If anything, it seems to me the OP is even more likely a violation than the second dribble scenario. One could argue that the second dribble isn't judged a dribble until the offensive player hits it again; but one cannot argue that player control starts at any point after the dribble begins. So, even if you don't judge it a dribble until it hits the floor and returns to the dribbler; it seems pretty clear that once the dribble does, player control will have started at the bat.

4.15 comment: "A player is not dribbling.......when he/she bats.......a pass away from other players......"

Isn't this exactly what happens in the OP?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15 comment: "A player is not dribbling.......when he/she bats.......a pass away from other players......"

Isn't this exactly what happens in the OP?

Not necessarily. Think of the whether you'd consider the first bounce a dribble if she proceeded to pick it up after one bounce. If not, then you're right. If yes, then PC starts on the bat.

[Zoochy]

Team A has the ball. Team B bats the ball loose. The ball is being pin-balled. B1 bats the ball in the similar manner from the original post. The ball hits the ground and B1 gets fouled.
If Team B is in the bonus, does B1 shoot free throws?
Same question. When does Team/Player control start?
I had that play occur in my game last year. I immediately asked the Official that blew the whistle if B1 had control? His response was, "She got fouled, we are shooting free throws." I don't think he had a clue why I asked him the question. Also, he never wanted to discuss the play after the game ended.

I don't think PC was established in either situation.

[Toren]

9-9-3?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Toren

9-9-3?

Nobody had both feet off the floor in the discussion at hand.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not necessarily. Think of the whether you'd consider the first bounce a dribble if she proceeded to pick it up after one bounce. If not, then you're right. If yes, then PC starts on the bat.

Often a single bat followed by a catch does not equal a dribble even when it was a pass from a teammate. I don't think I've ever seen a single bat on a steal which I considered control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Often a single bat followed by a catch does not equal a dribble even when it was a pass from a teammate. I don't think I've ever seen a single bat on a steal which I considered control.

Often, but not always. And I have seen plenty of initial bats that are clearly the start of a dribble, some even the start of team control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Often, but not always. And I have seen plenty of initial bats that are clearly the start of a dribble, some even the start of team control.

Some? If it's the start of a dribble, then it must be both player control, and team control.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Some? If it's the start of a dribble, then it must be both player control, and team control.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

My point was they all start player control, but some start team control with a bat (defensive play, or an initial dribble off of a throw in pass.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

3 points doesn't apply to the initial position here because the dribbler moves from front to back court.

We have a player establishing player and team control with a dribble with one foot in the FC, one foot in the air, and the ball in the BC (first bounce on the division line). So I see this as team control being established with the ball not having FC status, due (in the spirit of if not in the fact of) the three points rule.