When FC/BC status begins

[bainsey]

A-1 makes a bad cross-court pass that's easily stolen by B-2, who steals it with one hand and immediately starts a dribble.

Here's the crux: When B-2 starts this her dribble, she has a foot in the air, one in the FC (about 10 inches from the division line), and her dribble hits the division line. When did status begin, when she immediately touched the ball (resulting in a violation), or when the dribble is established (no violation)?

[TimTaylor]

Ask yourself when team control was established and you'll have your answer...

[Adam]

Was she ever holding the ball prior to the dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A-1 makes a bad cross-court pass that's easily stolen by B-2, who steals it with one hand and immediately starts a dribble.

Here's the crux: When B-2 starts this her dribble, she has a foot in the air, one in the FC (about 10 inches from the division line), and her dribble hits the division line. When did status begin, when she immediately touched the ball (resulting in a violation), or when the dribble is established (no violation)?

Two entirely different things.

The status of the ball changes upon a mere touch by a player or when contact is made with the court. So in your scenario the ball had frontcourt status from the view of Team B the moment that B2 touched it and the ball then had backcourt status, again with regard to Team B, the moment that it bounced on the division line.

However, you are concerned with player and team CONTROL, which is a necessary element for there to be a backcourt violation. Player control means holding or dribbling the ball and when there is player control there is team control, so unless B2 had player control and thus there was Team control for B in the frontcourt prior to the ball striking the division line, the play was legal. If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Two entirely different things.

The status of the ball changes upon a mere touch by a player or when contact is made with the court. So in your scenario the ball had frontcourt status from the view of Team B the moment that B2 touched it and the ball then had backcourt status, again with regard to Team B, the moment that it bounced on the division line.

However, you are concerned with player and team CONTROL, which is a necessary element for there to be a backcourt violation. Player control means holding or dribbling the ball and when there is player control there is team control, so unless B2 had player control and thus there was Team control for B in the frontcourt prior to the ball striking the division line, the play was legal. If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

Excellent explaination of the situation. Nevada you are now doomed for the rest of your career because of my praise.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Two entirely different things.

The status of the ball changes upon a mere touch by a player or when contact is made with the court. So in your scenario the ball had frontcourt status from the view of Team B the moment that B2 touched it and the ball then had backcourt status, again with regard to Team B, the moment that it bounced on the division line.

However, you are concerned with player and team CONTROL, which is a necessary element for there to be a backcourt violation. Player control means holding or dribbling the ball and when there is player control there is team control, so unless B2 had player control and thus there was Team control for B in the frontcourt prior to the ball striking the division line, the play was legal. If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

I agree, but let me ask this.

For those who claim a dribble starts once the ball is released, wouldn't this need to be called a violation regardless?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

She never caught the ball (to answer Snaq's question). She merely took an errant floating pass and started dribbling it right away. I would say she had control of it immediately upon the touch.

Here's where I'm conflicted, though. We all know that, when a player is dribbling, that ball has backcourt status when the either foot or the ball is in the backcourt. This player was dribbling right away. How do you know where the status is until you let the ball hit the floor?

[johnny d]

This discussion is ridiculous. I doubt you need to worry about a call in a situation as described in this thread. I know I am not going to sweat this type of minutiae at any level game I happen to be officiating at the time. Seriously, stolen ball at the division line, one foot in FC, one foot in the air, and you are really going to be concerned where the persons first dribble hits...not a chance, good steal and play on! Now if you just want to debate exactly when a player in this situation gains control for purely theoretical purposes than by all means carry on.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This discussion is ridiculous. I doubt you need to worry about a call in a situation as described in this thread. I know I am not going to sweat this type of minutiae at any level game I happen to be officiating at the time. Seriously, stolen ball at the division line, one foot in FC, one foot in the air, and you are really going to be concerned where the persons first dribble hits...not a chance, good steal and play on! Now if you just want to debate exactly when a player in this situation gains control for purely theoretical purposes than by all means carry on.

I think most would agree with your sentiments on the whole, but the part in red is what makes this forum a great place to learn and really think about rules and rules applications so that when we're in a game situation and something unusual happens, we may have something spark in our brains from something we read here. I get what you're saying to a point, but the discussion is hardly ridiculous. And if you aren't interested in the theoretical discussions maybe you can post some obnoxious pictures or unfunny jokes.

[Lotto]

Since the dribble started immediately, I think that one can apply the "three points" principle and say that the ball does not have front court status until both feet and the ball are in the front court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Lotto

Since the dribble started immediately, I think that one can apply the "three points" principle and say that the ball does not have front court status until both feet and the ball are in the front court.

3 points doesn't apply to the initial position here because the dribbler moves from front to back court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This discussion is ridiculous. I doubt you need to worry about a call in a situation as described in this thread. I know I am not going to sweat this type of minutiae at any level game I happen to be officiating at the time. Seriously, stolen ball at the division line, one foot in FC, one foot in the air, and you are really going to be concerned where the persons first dribble hits...not a chance, good steal and play on! Now if you just want to debate exactly when a player in this situation gains control for purely theoretical purposes than by all means carry on.

I disagree, this play isn't that uncommon. 99.9% of the time, you won't have a call on it, because we give the benefit of the doubt normally to the defender making a play here.

Now, if that new dribbler gets the ball down in the FC before anything touches the BC, then I would have a violation (with possible exceptions I haven't considered.)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

whynotwhynotk this.

For those who claim a dribble starts once the ball is released, wouldn't this need to be called a violation regardless?

Player never held the ball. There was no release.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

She never caught the ball (to answer Snaq's question). She merely took an errant floating pass and started dribbling it right away. I would say she had control of it immediately upon the touch.

You are still mixing two definitions and this is confusing you. A player cannot have player control with merely a touch. The rule requires holding the ball or dribbling. So you must decide if the player held the ball in one hand or began a dribble while having frontcourt status.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Player never held the ball. There was no release.

A dribble may be started by batting the ball.

[johnny d]

snaq, you make my point exactly, 99.9% of time this is a no call. of course there are going to be exceptions such as the one you pointed out, but that is not the situation described. as described this play is 100% of the time a play on, there is no point in this situation to try to determine if the first batting of the ball to start initial dribble constituted control or not. nobody in their right mind would call this a bc violation, nor would any sane coach or assignment guy expect such a call to be made.