When FC/BC status begins

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Two entirely different things.

The status of the ball changes upon a mere touch by a player or when contact is made with the court. So in your scenario the ball had frontcourt status from the view of Team B the moment that B2 touched it and the ball then had backcourt status, again with regard to Team B, the moment that it bounced on the division line.

However, you are concerned with player and team CONTROL, which is a necessary element for there to be a backcourt violation. Player control means holding or dribbling the ball and when there is player control there is team control, so unless B2 had player control and thus there was Team control for B in the frontcourt prior to the ball striking the division line, the play was legal. If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

I agree, but let me ask this.

For those who claim a dribble starts once the ball is released, wouldn't this need to be called a violation regardless?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

whynotwhynotk this.

For those who claim a dribble starts once the ball is released, wouldn't this need to be called a violation regardless?

Player never held the ball. There was no release.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

She never caught the ball (to answer Snaq's question). She merely took an errant floating pass and started dribbling it right away. I would say she had control of it immediately upon the touch.

You are still mixing two definitions and this is confusing you. A player cannot have player control with merely a touch. The rule requires holding the ball or dribbling. So you must decide if the player held the ball in one hand or began a dribble while having frontcourt status.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Player never held the ball. There was no release.

A dribble may be started by batting the ball.

[johnny d]

snaq, you make my point exactly, 99.9% of time this is a no call. of course there are going to be exceptions such as the one you pointed out, but that is not the situation described. as described this play is 100% of the time a play on, there is no point in this situation to try to determine if the first batting of the ball to start initial dribble constituted control or not. nobody in their right mind would call this a bc violation, nor would any sane coach or assignment guy expect such a call to be made.

[johnny d]

without question, rules knowledge is absolutely essential to officiate basketball, but so is knowing how and when to apply those rules. i dont think it would help one's career to nitpick things as described in this thread.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

snaq, you make my point exactly, 99.9% of time this is a no call. of course there are going to be exceptions such as the one you pointed out, but that is not the situation described. as described this play is 100% of the time a play on, there is no point in this situation to try to determine if the first batting of the ball to start initial dribble constituted control or not. nobody in their right mind would call this a bc violation, nor would any sane coach or assignment guy expect such a call to be made.

I think this play is also useful to discuss the whole question of when a dribble begins. We've had a lengthy discussion on whether an illegal dribble violation should be called when a player (having already used his dribble) pushes the ball toward the floor but it's intercepted by a defender before it returns to his hand.

Those who claim this is a violation (and not a play-on) should call the OP a BC violation, as PC starts immediately once the player's dribble has begun. If his first push (or bat) is the start of his dribble, then it happens while he has FC status, meaning the dribble hitting the division line is a BC violation.

[billyu2]

As Nevadaref said, "a player cannot have player control by merely touching (batting, slapping or tapping) a pass." CB 4.15 COMMENT seems to cover this play. Since it was mentioned the ball was never caught then the pass must have been batted or allowed to rebound off the hand which does not constitute player control, therefore no violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by billyu2

As Nevadaref said, "a player cannot have player control by merely touching (batting, slapping or tapping) a pass." CB 4.15 COMMENT seems to cover this play. Since it was mentioned the ball was never caught then the pass must have been batted or allowed to rebound off the hand which does not constitute player control, therefore no violation.

Agreed. In this case the initial bat does not define a dribble until it strikes the floor and subsequently remains in control of the player making the steal.

I see this as totally different than the player who has ended a dribble, then pushes the ball toward the floor, intending to start another, even if it strikes something else instead.