Play for Discussion No Call or Foul

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I had a screen shot I made of the middle of that play but I seem to have misplaced it...perhaps on my other machine. It shows blue coming over white's leg (in mid-stride) and side to get to the position where the elbow could make the contact it did. And prior to that, long before the elbow is involved, white is reaching across blue to hold him from cutting...then the elbow comes up to get that arm off of him.

A defender doesn't get to fly into an opponent and get bailed out because the contact happened to involve an elbow...one that was never extended....it was just there. It didn't knock the player over, the hip/body contact was already doing that.

To call the elbow rewards a defender who was out of position, late to the play, and illegal in more than one way. The elbow is easy to see and is an easy way out....but not the right call.

How many times do we (correctly) get accused of getting the 2nd, sometimes bigger, foul because it gets our attention, even though it was a reaction and retaliation to the first one. In this case, that is the 2nd foul (maybe even the 3rd). And, short of it being ruled intentional, is nothing since the first foul(s) made the ball dead.

Its hard to tell 100% but it appears to me that the defenders body gains momentum when the elbow contacts him. The elbow doesn't have to be extended to cause displacement. Not in this case. That's because the offensive player is moving to the basket. The arm, although stationary in relation to his body, is still moving. Physics 101. This causes a transfer of energy which causes the displacement. Had the elbow not been extended I don't believe the player would have been displaced as much as he was. I've slowed this video down as much as I can many times and can not still 100% determine if the hip was the greater cause for the displacement or the elbow. In real time, I have a foul. If it takes me slowing this play down frame by frame to convince myself otherwise, then I can live with my call on the floor.

[rwest]

After thinking about it from a physics standpoint, I believe I know what is happening. Still not 100% sure because I can't slow it down frame by frame, but the physics works.

Both players are of a similar height and weight so there mass is going to be similar. They are both moving but in different directions. The offensive player is moving faster than the defender. So the offensive player has greater force. However, I don't believe the force from the hip contact is enough to displace the player. Remember, we have to take into account the force the defender is exerting. The force the offensive player is generating has to be sufficiently greater than the defenders to account for the displacement. I don't believe it is. It is however enough to cause him to be off balance. The elbow then causes him to be displaced like he was. That is why it appears to me that the defender gains momentum when contact occurs with the elbow. The hip caused the player to be off balance but it was the elbow the sent the player to the floor.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

After thinking about it from a physics standpoint, I believe I know what is happening. Still not 100% sure because I can't slow it down frame by frame, but the physics works.

Both players are of a similar height and weight so there mass is going to be similar. They are both moving but in different directions. The offensive player is moving faster than the defender. So the offensive player has greater force. However, I don't believe the force from the hip contact is enough to displace the player. Remember, we have to take into account the force the defender is exerting. The force the offensive player is generating has to be sufficiently greater than the defenders to account for the displacement. I don't believe it is. It is however enough to cause him to be off balance. The elbow then causes him to be displaced like he was. That is why it appears to me that the defender gains momentum when contact occurs with the elbow. The hip caused the player to be off balance but it was the elbow the sent the player to the floor.

Good explanation. And I don't think I can disagree with any of it.

So then, was the hip contact legal or not (offensive foul, defensive foul, neither)?. Why?

I think we all agree that the hip contact was not an offensive foul, but was a potential defensive foul that some say is marginal.

Assuming that is not a foul....

Did that hip contact (caused by the defender who was clearly not in LGP) put the defender in a very precarious position where it would only take minor additional contact to send him over the edge? Did the elbow contact really put the defender at any more of a disadvantage or was the disadvantage mostly from being off balance from the hip contact?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good explanation. And I don't think I can disagree with any of it.

So then, was the hip contact legal or not (offensive foul, defensive foul, neither)?. Why?

I think we all agree that the hip contact was not an offensive foul, but was a potential defensive foul that some say is marginal.

Assuming that is not a foul....

Did that hip contact (caused by the defender who was clearly not in LGP) put the defender in a very precarious position where it would only take minor additional contact to send him over the edge? Did the elbow contact really put the defender at any more of a disadvantage or was the disadvantage mostly from being off balance from the hip contact?

Let me answer with a question. Assuming I have the sequence of events and the physics correct, would the player have gone to the floor without the elbow? I believe the answer to that question is the answer to whether or not we should have an offensive foul. It seems obvious to me that the offensive player was not disadvantaged because he was able to get a shot attempt off. The secondary player may have fouled, but I have nothing on the primary defender. And if we call a foul on the offensive player, then the secondary defenders contact would have been irrelevant. Having said all that, I believe the elbow is what sent the player to the floor and can't be ignored. I have an offensive foul. Remember the disadvantage to the defender was that he was not in a position to rebound the missed shot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Let me answer with a question. Assuming I have the sequence of events and the physics correct, would the player have gone to the floor without the elbow? I believe the answer to that question is the answer to whether or not we should have an offensive foul. It seems obvious to me that the offensive player was not disadvantaged because he was able to get a shot attempt off. The secondary player may have fouled, but I have nothing on the primary defender. And if we call a foul on the offensive player, then the secondary defenders contact would have been irrelevant. Having said all that, I believe the elbow is what sent the player to the floor and can't be ignored. I have an offensive foul. Remember the disadvantage to the defender was that he was not in a position to rebound the missed shot.

This is where we differ, I think he was going to the floor with or without the elbow, due to the hip contact form his cutting across the path of the offensive player, and the elbow was just the icing on the cake and to call and offensive foul would be bailing out a poor defensive play by a player was late to the spot.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

This is where we differ, I think he was going to the floor with or without the elbow, due to the hip contact form his cutting across the path of the offensive player, and the elbow was just the icing on the cake and to call and offensive foul would be bailing out a poor defensive play by a player was late to the spot.

But I really believe he would not have gone to the floor without the elbow. Again, in real time I'm more positive about this than when compared to slowing it down and reviewing it dozens of times. We don't have that luxury on the court. But I don't see anything that definitely changes my position. I stand with the team control foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rwest

Thinking about it from a physics standpoint.

I took physics in high school. They really helped me to become regular.