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Old Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:38pm
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Throw in spot

Play - A1 has the ball for throw in on the end line. He passes the ball up court to A2. A2 has one foot at the division line in bounds and the other foot out of bounds. Where is the throw in spot for the violation. Rule reference please.
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Old Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:44pm
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Originally Posted by dbking View Post
Play - A1 has the ball for throw in on the end line. He passes the ball up court to A2. A2 has one foot at the division line in bounds and the other foot out of bounds. Where is the throw in spot for the violation. Rule reference please.
Where he stepped OOB....don't have my book with me, but look up OOB violations. The spot is where the ball goes OOB by touching the player who is OOB. Oh, perhaps you wanted to relate it to a throwin violation......doesn't work because the throwin in only required to legally touch or be legally touched by a player inbounds OR out of bounds. The key is to understand that being legally touched is not referring to the location of the touch, just the manner of the touch. A "kick" is not a legal touch while catching it is. But then, the player is OOB and has violated that rule.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 11:49am.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2012, 03:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbking View Post
Play - A1 has the ball for throw in on the end line. He passes the ball up court to A2. A2 has one foot at the division line in bounds and the other foot out of bounds. Where is the throw in spot for the violation. Rule reference please.
2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations

Publisher's Note: The National Federation of State High School Associations is the only source of official high school interpretations. They do not set aside nor modify any rule. They are made and published by the NFHS in response to situations presented.

Robert F. Kanaby, Publisher, NFHS Publications 2007


SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2012, 08:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbking View Post
A1 has the ball for throw in on the end line. He passes the ball up court to A2. A2 has one foot at the division line in bounds and the other foot out of bounds. Where is the throw in spot for the violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Where hey stepped OOB. The spot is where the ball goes OOB by touching the player who is OOB. Oh, perhaps you wanted to relate it to a throwin violation, doesn't work because the throwin in only required to legally touch or be legally touched by a player inbounds or out of bounds.
The Forum gets a few questions regarding this situation every year. Why is there confusion on such a simple call? Because there are a few officials, coaches, and fans, that remember the old NFHS rule from the mid 1980's that had this as a throwin violation. Under this ancient rule, if thrower C1 "passes" the ball to "catcher" D1, who is out of bounds, it was a throwin violation on C1, and Team D would have gotten the ball for a throwin at the original spot. Questions like this will continue until all of us "old timers" go to the big jump ball circle in the sky.

Speaking of "old timers". I'm sure that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will be moseying along shortly to confirm my ancient interpretation.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jun 16, 2012 at 09:12am.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2012, 02:28pm
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because a round of beer rides on the answer!
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Old Sat Jun 23, 2012, 10:21pm
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Camron confirmed that a kick is not a legal touch. So if the ball was first kicked by the defense during the throw in, technically the throw in did not end, so what happens next? and where? (If the offense commits a violation during a throw in, the throw in does end.)
If this was an AP throw in, does the arrow stay the same? I know a kicked ball on a throw in is unusual, but it can happen when a defender is closely guarding the thrower.

Last edited by DrPete; Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 10:35pm.
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 12:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Camron confirmed that a kick is not a legal touch. So if the ball was first kicked by the defense during the throw in, technically the throw in did not end, so what happens next? and where? (If the offense commits a violation during a throw in, the throw in does end.)
If this was an AP throw in, does the arrow stay the same? I know a kicked ball on a throw in is unusual, but it can happen when a defender is closely guarding the thrower.
If the first touch of an AP throw-in is a defensive kick, then the arrow will stay with team A as the ensuing throw-in is for the violation, not the AP. The throw-in spot will be at the spot out of bounds nearest where B kicked it.
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Camron confirmed that a kick is not a legal touch. So if the ball was first kicked by the defense during the throw in, technically the throw in did not end, so what happens next? and where? (If the offense commits a violation during a throw in, the throw in does end.)
If this was an AP throw in, does the arrow stay the same? I know a kicked ball on a throw in is unusual, but it can happen when a defender is closely guarding the thrower.
Why would you think that the arrow would change if the defense committed a kick-ball violation?
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 11:06am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Why would you think that the arrow would change if the defense committed a kick-ball violation?
Well.... I think it should, but the rule says otherwise and I accept that.
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 06:49pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Why would you think that the arrow would change if the defense committed a kick-ball violation?
I don't think it should change, I was just putting the question out there for others to see the answer. A throw in only ends if the ball is legally touched (either in bounds or out) or on a violation by the throw in team. If there is a foul, or a defensive violation, then the throw in has not technically ended (Rule 4-42-7), so you would not change the AP arrow.

Is that correct???
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 08:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
I don't think it should change, I was just putting the question out there for others to see the answer. A throw in only ends if the ball is legally touched (either in bounds or out) or on a violation by the throw in team. If there is a foul, or a defensive violation, then the throw in has not technically ended (Rule 4-42-7), so you would not change the AP arrow.

Is that correct???
Not necessarily. Apparently, if the defense commits a first-time boundary plane violation during an AP throw-in, the ensuing throw-in is still an AP throw-in and the arrow will change when that throw-in ends. I always thought otherwise but was told by expert forum members the throw-in is still an AP throw-in so that's what I go by. Never had it happen, tho.
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Old Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:46pm
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Not necessarily. Apparently, if the defense commits a first-time boundary plane violation during an AP throw-in, the ensuing throw-in is still an AP throw-in and the arrow will change when that throw-in ends. I always thought otherwise but was told by expert forum members the throw-in is still an AP throw-in so that's what I go by. Never had it happen, tho.
Unless you're operating under modified rules, your expert is wrong. Or you misunderstood him. The rule book is very clear about this one.
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Old Mon Jun 25, 2012, 04:08am
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Not necessarily. Apparently, if the defense commits a first-time boundary plane violation during an AP throw-in, the ensuing throw-in is still an AP throw-in and the arrow will change when that throw-in ends. I always thought otherwise but was told by expert forum members the throw-in is still an AP throw-in so that's what I go by. Never had it happen, tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Unless you're operating under modified rules, your expert is wrong. Or you misunderstood him. The rule book is very clear about this one.
Unfortunately, "the expert" is correct according to a recent NFHS interpretation. This is unfortunate because I, like Snaqwells, believe that the person who authored this interpretation is mistaken and that a new throw-in should be awarded for the plane violation and it not remain an AP throw-in. This situation is exactly the same as the defensive team committing a kicking violation on the initial touch (see case play 4.42.5, which also contains poor wording in the comment section). However, what is below is the official NFHS ruling for the play.

NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
Robert F. Kanaby, Publisher, NFHS Publications 2009

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in by Team A, B1 breaks the plane of the boundary line. The official
stops play. RULING: Team B is issued a warning for breaking the throw-in plane. Since the original alternating-possession
throw-in had not ended, the ball is again awarded to Team A and remains an alternating-possession throw-in. Any type of
further delay by Team B results in a team technical foul. (4-42-5; 4-47-1; 6-4-4; 7-6-4; 10-1-5c)

==================
4.42.5 SITUATION:
Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in.
A1s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2.
RULING: As a result of B2s kicking
violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to
where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession
throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and
therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession
throw-in.
COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession
throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered.
When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking

violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A.
=================================
(Note by Nevadaref: By rule 4-42-5, the kicking violation by the non-throwing team is NOT one of the three items listed which would end the alternating possesion throw-in. The NFHS should have written "interrupts" or "stops" rather than "ends.")
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Old Mon Jun 25, 2012, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
Robert F. Kanaby, Publisher, NFHS Publications 2009

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in by Team A, B1 breaks the plane of the boundary line. The official
stops play. RULING: Team B is issued a warning for breaking the throw-in plane. Since the original alternating-possession
throw-in had not ended, the ball is again awarded to Team A and remains an alternating-possession throw-in. Any type of
further delay by Team B results in a team technical foul. (4-42-5; 4-47-1; 6-4-4; 7-6-4; 10-1-5c)

==================
4.42.5 SITUATION:
Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in.
A1s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2.
RULING: As a result of B2s kicking
violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to
where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession
throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and
therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession
throw-in.
COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession
throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered.
When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking

violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A.
=================================
(Note by Nevadaref: By rule 4-42-5, the kicking violation by the non-throwing team is NOT one of the three items listed which would end the alternating possesion throw-in. The NFHS should have written "interrupts" or "stops" rather than "ends.")
Wow, that's a new one for me. Great post.
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Old Mon Jun 25, 2012, 10:41am
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Well then....
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