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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 08:50pm
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New Throw In Spot ???

I watched some of my colleagues in a state quarterfinal game tonight. Three top officials, in terms of both rule interpretations, and realistic officiating.

A1 has ball for throwin in front of table. Long throwin pass across to the opposite side of court. Ball is not touched by any inbounds player. A2 is standing with one foot out of bounds, and one foot inbounds, on the sideline opposite the table. A2 catches throwin pass. Official near out of bounds catch blows his whistle, points back to the original throw in spot, tosses the ball back to the table side official who administered the throwin. That official administers the new throwin, giving the ball to B1 for the new throwin.

I thought the play seemed odd. After the game, they invited me to critique their game. I mentioned that I had questioned, in my mind, this play. I believed that the A2 caused the ball to go out of bounds, that it was not a throwin violation, and that B should have gotten the throwin at the spot nearest to where A2 caught the ball. The senior member of the crew agreed with me. The other two officials, including the official nearest the out of bounds player, who blew his whistle on the call, were not sure about the play. While they were showering, I looked through the casebook to find the correct interpretation, but couldn't find it. I'm sure that a Forum member could give me, not only the correct interpretation, but a citation to go with it. Please help.
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Old Sat Mar 01, 2008, 11:26pm
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Lightbulb

Use 7-5-2(a); 7-2; 9-2-2

Good call.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 12:55pm
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Thanks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Use 7-5-2(a); 7-2; 9-2-2
mick: Thanks.

Rule 9-2-2: Throw In Provisions: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

Rule 7-2-1: Causing The Ball To Go Out Of Bounds - Individual Player: The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player.

Rule 7-2-2: Causing The Ball To Go Out Of Bounds - Individual Player: If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside a boundary line, such player causes it to go out.

Rule 7-5-2 (a): Throw In, Resuming Play: Designated out-of-bounds spot throw-in nearest the violation: After any violation, as in 9-2 through 10 and 9-13, the official shall place the ball at the disposal of an opponent of the player who committed the violation for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

I can't find any casebook citations, even for a different situation that we see all the time, a throwin going out of bounds untouched. Are there any casebook citations?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 02:08pm
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I believe that a season or two ago, someone here noticed that the penalty section in Rule 9 actually required the throw-in to return to the original spot, as your officials did in their game. When this was pointed out by enough people, the penalty section was changed to the way it was "supposed to be", which is how you explained it. A2 committed the violation, not A1, so the new throw-in will be from the spot of A2's violation.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I can't find any casebook citations, even for a different situation that we see all the time, a throwin going out of bounds untouched. Are there any casebook citations?
You don't need a case book citation for this one; it's covered explicitly in the rule book. It's a violation of rule 9-2-2 and the listed PENALTY for Section 2, except for Article 10, states that the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 02:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I believe that a season or two ago, someone here noticed that the penalty section in Rule 9 actually required the throw-in to return to the original spot, as your officials did in their game. When this was pointed out by enough people, the penalty section was changed to the way it was "supposed to be", which is how you explained it. A2 committed the violation, not A1, so the new throw-in will be from the spot of A2's violation.
Yup, it's not a violation of R9-2-2. It's now a violation of (new) 9-3-2.

Btw, that was me that noticed that. Also btw, the penalty section wasn't changed. A new Article was added to R9-3. if you look at last year's rulebook, 9-3-3 was 9-3-2 and there were only 2 Articles in R9-3, not 3. See if you can find this change listed anywhere.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 02:38pm.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
A1 has ball for throwin in front of table. Long throwin pass across to the opposite side of court. Ball is not touched by any inbounds player. A2 is standing with one foot out of bounds, and one foot inbounds, on the sideline opposite the table. A2 catches throwin pass. Official near out of bounds catch blows his whistle, points back to the original throw in spot, tosses the ball back to the table side official who administered the throwin. That official administers the new throwin, giving the ball to B1 for the new throwin.

I thought the play seemed odd. After the game, they invited me to critique their game. I mentioned that I had questioned, in my mind, this play. I believed that the A2 caused the ball to go out of bounds, that it was not a throwin violation, and that B should have gotten the throwin at the spot nearest to where A2 caught the ball. The senior member of the crew agreed with me. The other two officials, including the official nearest the out of bounds player, who blew his whistle on the call, were not sure about the play. While they were showering, I looked through the casebook to find the correct interpretation, but couldn't find it. I'm sure that a Forum member could give me, not only the correct interpretation, but a citation to go with it. Please help.
Rule 9-3-2 and PENALTY.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 04:18pm
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Thanks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 9-3-2 and PENALTY.
Jurassic Referee, Scrapper1, and mick: Thanks.

Rule 9-3-2 Out Of Bounds: No player shall be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.

PENALTY: (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

I hate it when the NFHS makes changes, and doesn't announce them when each year's rule changes are publicized.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 04:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I hate it when the NFHS makes changes, and doesn't announce them when each year's rule changes are publicized.
It was never supposed to be changed to begin with.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 07:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, it's not a violation of R9-2-2. It's now a violation of (new) 9-3-2.

Btw, that was me that noticed that. Also btw, the penalty section wasn't changed. A new Article was added to R9-3. if you look at last year's rulebook, 9-3-3 was 9-3-2 and there were only 2 Articles in R9-3, not 3. See if you can find this change listed anywhere.
Wait a minute JR.... See Where is the Throw-in?
I posted the question. Nevada noticed the same problem and brought it to the readers attention.
So, is your real name Al Gore?
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 08:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy
Wait a minute JR.... See Where is the Throw-in?
I posted the question. Nevada noticed the same problem and brought it to the readers attention.
So, is your real name Al Gore?
Sigh.....reading is fundamental.

Go back and read my post #4 of the thread that you posted above. Then note that every answer that Nevada gave in his post #2 was incorrect.Then read Nevada's post #6. Note that Nevada by his own admission wasn't aware of the correct call cited in my post #4 and had been calling it wrong.

Stick Al Gore up your azz.
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Old Sun Mar 02, 2008, 11:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Stick Al Gore up your azz.
Best idea I've heard all week.
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Old Mon Mar 03, 2008, 06:15am
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Billy Mac,
Your "top-notch" colleagues botched this one. You and the senior official are correct.
In addition to what the others have posted, the NFHS issued an interpretation THIS very season to clarify this situation after the back and forth rules book snafu.

Show your fellow refs this:
2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 3: During an alternating-possession throw-in for Team A, thrower A1 passes the ball directly on the court where it contacts (a) A2 or (b) B2, while he/she is standing on a boundary line. RULING: Out-of-bounds violation on (a) A2; (b) B2. The player was touched by the ball while out of bounds, thereby ending the throw-in. The alternating-possession arrow is reversed and pointed toward Team B's basket when the throw-in ends (when A2/B2 is touched by the ball). A throw-in is awarded at a spot nearest the out-of-bounds violation for (a) Team B; (b) Team A. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 9-2-2; 9-3-2)
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