You Make The Call: Pass And Crash

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".

Fair enough...but your reply to whether the shot should count was to a post (that you quoted) ruling that it was a block...so that was the context. I can't read you mind if you want to flip the call without saying so.

As for it being clear cut, I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.

How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How can I tell? The directions the two players go after contact. The passer was deflected 90 degrees towards the sideline. The defender went mostly straight back but also slightly towards the sideline. The only way that happens is if the defender was moving towards the sideline at the time of contact AND into the side of the passer. The passer didn't go through the defender. If the passer had gone through the defender, the defender would have been knocked the opposite direction of the passer....certainly not in the same direction.

I thought I was the only one who used this logic on block/charge situations

It's physics, folks, pure and simple.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

It's physics, folks, pure and simple.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Awesome! I went to a science high school (yes, this song was popular when I was there). We think about these things

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... I called it a block because the defender stuck their shoulder out moved into the passer.
...

How can I tell? Not as complicated as your answer. I can tell b/c I observed B1 step towards A1 and make contact with his shoulder into A1's chest.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

How can I tell? Not as complicated as your answer. I can tell b/c I observed B1 step towards A1 and make contact with his shoulder into A1's chest.

That too, but that point was essentially already covered and some just couldn't see it.

Even if you can't "see" it, you can use basic physics to tell what happened from the results.

Think billiards....can you ever hit a stationary ball on the left side and have it go left? No, not possible. The only way that the target ball can go left is if it was moving left before impact with more momentum in that direction than the other ball had in the opposite direction.

You can use these concepts to know who was moving into who without ever seeing the contact. (You have to see it enough to rule out flopping, of course).

[rsl]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Even if you can't "see" it, you can use basic physics to tell what happened from the results.

Think billiards...

Unlike billiard balls, humans can change their direction. I think at least part of the passer's 90 degree exit on this play was because he had turned to make the pass and it was natural to step straight back. I agree with BadNewsRef- you need to see the defender step forward to get the call right. You can be fooled by physics.