Pass and Crash...

[Nonstop]

What philosophy do you follow with the "pass and crash" at the HS level?

A couple situations to think about:

1) On a drive in the lane A1 passes to A2. A1 immediately "crashes" into B1 who has a legal guarding position. A2 makes a basket. What if there are one or two steps after the pass before A1 "crashes", rather than immediately?

2) On a drive in the lane A1 passes to A2. A1 immediately "crashes" into B1 who has NOT obtained legal guarding position. A2 makes a basket.

What if players are on the floor? What if they aren't?

When is a no-call appropriate and when not?

I may have opened a can of worms here, but I think this play is a tough "instinctual" call. Meaning, if I don't think through the call now, I may leave myself hanging on the court.

Thanks!

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Nonstop
What philosophy do you follow with the "pass and crash" at the HS level?

A couple situations to think about:

1) On a drive in the lane A1 passes to A2. A1 immediately "crashes" into B1 who has a legal guarding position. A2 makes a basket. What if there are one or two steps after the pass before A1 "crashes", rather than immediately?

2) On a drive in the lane A1 passes to A2. A1 immediately "crashes" into B1 who has NOT obtained legal guarding position. A2 makes a basket.

What if players are on the floor? What if they aren't?

When is a no-call appropriate and when not?

I may have opened a can of worms here, but I think this play is a tough "instinctual" call. Meaning, if I don't think through the call now, I may leave myself hanging on the court.

Thanks!

Assuming this is FED, It all depends upon legal guarding position being attained and maintained.

1. After the ball leaves A1's hands we can no longer have a player control foul. Assuming B1 has legal guarding position it is a pushing foul on A1. If A2 has already released the try count the basket. If not then there is no basket. Regardless A's ball OOB nearest spot of foul.

2. Similar to sitch 1 except it is a block on B1. Count basket if already released and give A1 ball nearest spot of foul. If try has not yet been atempted A1 gets ball spot OOB nearest foul.

Someone else can help w/ rule references if you need them

If there is significant contact than there cannot be a no call IMO. I think we use the "no call" to bail ourselves out a little too often.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
2. Similar to sitch 1 except it is a block on B1. Count basket if already released and give A1 ball nearest spot of foul. If try has not yet been atempted A1 gets ball spot OOB nearest foul.

Continuous Motion applies in this case (case 2), so the ball doesn't have to be released before the foul to count the basket.

[Hawks Coach]

Bob
A2 is shooter, so continuous motion does not apply. In fact, if A1 releases pass while in air and hits B1, it is extremely unlikely that A1's pass reaches A2 for a catch and shoot before the contact. If this is going to be a foul either way, it happended before the shot unless we are on the moon.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by Nonstop
What philosophy do you follow with the "pass and crash" at the HS level?

The crew must determine responsibility in the pregame. The way I handle it is that the official who had responsibility for the dribbler/passer, stays with the player. That is takes the crash. Other's may find it easier the other way. The point is that the officating team must decide how to handle it prior to the game. Same with block/charge. Who gets the call? I give it to the official that the play is heading towards. Whatever you decide, be sure to sell the call if it needs selling. If you need to wipe off a shot, do it emphatically and immediately so there is no doubt.

Mregor

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Bob
A2 is shooter, so continuous motion does not apply. In fact, if A1 releases pass while in air and hits B1, it is extremely unlikely that A1's pass reaches A2 for a catch and shoot before the contact. If this is going to be a foul either way, it happended before the shot unless we are on the moon.

Hawks you are correct about cont. motion. However if A1 takes a couple of steps before the crash A2 may have already released the ball. I will agree w/ you that in many cases this is very unlikely.

[Hawks Coach]

I missed the add in about one or two steps in the initial post. I would agree in that case that a shot could be released, but that would be an odd series of events.

Usually once they land, offensive players can avoid a defender. And defenders are not normally standing stationary to take a charge from a player who has already passed and taken 1-2 steps, especially when they pass to a player who is an immediate scoring threat.

Defenders normally react to the ball, in which case you would have two players moving off the ball and colliding, which would be a no call.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I missed the add in about one or two steps in the initial post. I would agree in that case that a shot could be released, but that would be an odd series of events.

Usually once they land, offensive players can avoid a defender. And defenders are not normally standing stationary to take a charge from a player who has already passed and taken 1-2 steps, especially when they pass to a player who is an immediate scoring threat.

Defenders normally react to the ball, in which case you would have two players moving off the ball and colliding, which would be a no call.

Very good points Hawks. The type of contact you describe is and should in most cases be a no call. I have seen however (and called a couple of times) the occasional sitch where the offensive player will make a move to the bucket from outside the three point line and immediately kick the ball out to an adjacent teammate and because of their momentum crash (hard) into a defender in the post area who was reacting to the drive (and has obtained LGP) and have A1 knock them completely to the floor. While I have only watched this a couple of times, the shot by A2 may well be on its way by then.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Bob
A2 is shooter, so continuous motion does not apply. In fact, if A1 releases pass while in air and hits B1, it is extremely unlikely that A1's pass reaches A2 for a catch and shoot before the contact. If this is going to be a foul either way, it happended before the shot unless we are on the moon.

Play (ignoring all the extra parts): A2 begins a try. Before the ball is released B1 fouls A1. A2's attempt goes through the basket.

Ruling: Continuous motion applies. Count the basket. Award A1 a 1-and-1, or A the ball for the throw in.

Continuous motion applies anytime the defense fouls once a try has begun. The shooter need not be fouled.

I knew I'd get someone on this; I didn't think it would be you.

[Woodee]

. After the ball leaves A1's hands we can no longer have a player control foul. Assuming B1 has legal guarding position it is a pushing foul on A1. If A2 has already released the try count the basket. If not then there is no basket. Regardless A's ball OOB nearest spot of foul.


I don't understand how A gets a throw-in nearest spot of foul when Team A committed the foul?

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Play (ignoring all the extra parts): A2 begins a try. Before the ball is released B1 fouls A1. A2's attempt goes through the basket.

Ruling: Continuous motion applies. Count the basket. Award A1 a 1-and-1, or A the ball for the throw in.

Continuous motion applies anytime the defense fouls once a try has begun. The shooter need not be fouled.

I knew I'd get someone on this; I didn't think it would be you.

Bob
Not sure how you got me. A1 fouled B1, not vice versa. Foul on offense, continuous motion does not apply.

[Jurassic Referee]

Coach,if you go right back to the top and re-read the posts,I'll think you'll find that you're commenting on Sitch#1 and Bob is commenting on Sitch#2.In Sitch#2,B1 commits the foul on A1,while A2 is in the shooting motion.Bob's answer is 100% correct for that sitch---R6-7Exception3.

[Hawks Coach]