You Make The Call: Pass And Crash

[BillyMac]

AllPurposeGamer: Nice "pass and crash" video. Thanks for posting. There's a lot to learn in this video, and a situation that many of us see more than just a few times each season.

In real time, I've got a team control charge, no basket.

Lead official gives player control foul signal (hand behind head), not the team control "punch"? Did he call the "offensive" foul before the ball was passed?

I like the patience of the trail official, who puts up his fist but doesn't give a preliminary signal, thus avoiding the possible, dreaded, infamous, "blarge".

Many years ago our local board used the "train wreck" mantra, "Lead has the pass, trail has the crash". Now we are taught to stay in our primary.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

AllPurposeGamer: Nice "pass and crash" video. Thanks for posting. There's a lot to learn in this video, and a situation that many of us see more than just a few times each season.

In real time, I've got a team control charge, no basket.

Lead official gives player control foul signal (hand behind head), not the team control "punch"? Did he call the "offensive" foul before the ball was passed?

I like the patience of the trail official, who puts up his fist but doesn't give a preliminary signal, thus avoiding the possible, dreaded, infamous, "blarge".

Many years ago our local board used the mantra, "Lead has the pass, trail has the crash". Now we are taught to stay in our primary.

Watch the video again. The lead is signaling a push. No hand behind the head.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

Watch the video again. The lead is signaling a push. No hand behind the head.

I did. The lead's right hand is behind his head. It's the player control foul signal.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I did. The lead's right hand is behind his head. It's the player control foul signal.

Maybe he has his hand behind his head for a half second but he definitely comes out with a push signal after.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Maybe he has his hand behind his head.

Maybe? And maybe bears defecate in the woods. Maybe the Pope's Catholic. Maybe the sky's blue. Maybe a one legged duck swims in a circle. Maybe a frog has a waterproof butt. Maybe chickens cross the road to get to the other side. Maybe water is wet. Maybe, just maybe, Elvis is dead.

[twocentsworth]

Good call by both officials. Definitely a team control foul by the ball handler.

I do not understand how someone would pass on this play....the ball handler went to AND thru the defender who had LGP.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

[APG]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Good call by both officials. Definitely a team control foul by the ball handler.

I do not understand how someone would pass on this play....the ball handler went to AND thru the defender who had LGP.

See, I don't think he really went through the defender...I have the offensive player pulling up...then going to the side of the defender. The defender, IMO, embellished the amount of contact there was on the play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Block, not sure about the basket. Hard to tell if he started the motion. Probably would give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except (if you have a block), the foul is by an opponent of the shooter and the cutoff point is being in the act, not the release.

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

How'bout we just focus on the topic of this thread, the corresponding video in OP, and assume that is what my post was commenting on?

When we get to a discussion of block/charge, I'll agree with you on the exception to the Dead Ball rule.....

For the purposes of this thread...I'll repeat myself: the ball handler who makes a pass (in a pass-n-crash plays) virtually ALWAYS commits the foul before the receiver of his pass releases the ball. You will almost never count the basket in this type of play.

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Keep in mind that the ball has to be released by the shooter (not simply starting the act of shooting) when a teammate commits a foul in order for the basket to count.

If you think about it, the timing of these type of plays almost NEVER allows for this basket to count.

Scrapper says he has a block on this play, so how would the release be relevant to your response to him?

[Toren]

I got a block, basket is good.

Hated the mechanic by the lead, loved the hold on the mechanic by the C.

Now college rules are different than high school rules in how we adjudicate (if the call had been as I described?)?

Good play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

I got a block, basket is good.

Hated the mechanic by the lead, loved the hold on the mechanic by the C.

Now college rules are different than high school rules in how we adjudicate (if the call had been as I described?)?

Good play.

Pretty sure the rules are the same, regardless if one goes with a block or a charge on this play, between NCAA and NFHS.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Except he did not commit the foul, the defender did. So, my comment was about the video in the OP. The shot counts if the foul occurs after the receiver of the pass has started his act of shooting.

this few series of posts is a classic example of what happens on a message board....usually it's two different people both "arguing" their point of view....and they don't realize that they are each right...yet continue arguing for many pages....

If I were the Lead in this game (or the center), I would have called a team control foul on the passer. Shot not released prior to the foul, therefore no basket.

If you were the Lead in this gme (or the center), you would have called a blocking foul on the defender. If you deemed the foul to have occurred AFTER the natural shooting motion began, then you would count the basket.

We each have the rule interpretation right....we just disagree on the blocking foul.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear-cut team control foul on the passer. They could put the video of this play next to this rule in the online rule book as the "gold standard".