NFHS View of Shot Clock

[Texas Aggie]

it puts those states in jeopardy to have influence on rules in the NF.

This is only true when a state ignores a rule in place that isn't subject to an approved point for state adoption. Years ago, Fed baseball didn't allow metal cleats but Texas ignored that and allowed them. Texas reportedly lost their position on the rules committee. But they haven't in basketball just because they have a smaller coaching box that Fed basketball allows.

Do you have any examples of where the rules allow for state association adoption and the state that adopted it lost influence?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

This is only true when a state ignores a rule in place that isn't subject to an approved point for state adoption. Years ago, Fed baseball didn't allow metal cleats but Texas ignored that and allowed them. Texas reportedly lost their position on the rules committee. But they haven't in basketball just because they have a smaller coaching box that Fed basketball allows.

Do you have any examples of where the rules allow for state association adoption and the state that adopted it lost influence?

Exactly! The NFHS doesn't exclude states who chose any particular option where they've given the state the option. They only exclude states from the rules making process if they operate outside the set of options the NFHS rules give them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly! The NFHS doesn't exclude states who chose any particular option where they've given the state the option. They only exclude states from the rules making process if they operate outside the set of options the NFHS rules give them.

And as of now, shot clocks are not an approved option. Have the states that use it lost their seats? Is one rule deviation enough to lose that seat?

[gamefaceref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And as of now, shot clocks are not an approved option. Have the states that use it lost their seats? Is one rule deviation enough to lose that seat?

Yes, at least for California

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And as of now, shot clocks are not an approved option. Have the states that use it lost their seats? Is one rule deviation enough to lose that seat?

One of our newspaper reporters asked that question to a interscholastic association official in Massachusetts, where the shot clocks exist. The reply: "It's no big deal."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And as of now, shot clocks are not an approved option. Have the states that use it lost their seats? Is one rule deviation enough to lose that seat?

Yes. The states lose their seat over one deviation. I sure it takes a big one like this rather than some uniform waiver, but that is really their only way to maintain some amount of order. Otherwise, you'd have 100 completely different sets of "rules" (50 for each boys and girls).

IIRC, there are only about 8 states that actually use if for HS competition. It is not like the common press would have you believe that most states use it.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And as of now, shot clocks are not an approved option. Have the states that use it lost their seats? Is one rule deviation enough to lose that seat?

So if states that use the shot clock lose a seat, then the NFHS essentially excludes supporters of a high school shot clock from having a voice in making it an option..

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

So if states that use the shot clock lose a seat, then the NFHS essentially excludes supporters of a high school shot clock from having a voice in making it an option..

Maybe. But your assuming that everyone from those states thinks there should be a shot clock. Just because they have one doesn't mean the individuals support one.

And I doubt they lose their voice, they just lose a seat at the table that makes the decision. They probably still have representation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe. But your assuming that everyone from those states thinks there should be a shot clock. Just because they have one doesn't mean the individuals support one.

And I doubt they lose their voice, they just lose a seat at the table that makes the decision. They probably still have representation.

I can find out, but I am under the impression that states that have decided not to be full members can attend the meetings and even speak at those meetings, they just cannot vote on rules proposals and cannot make proposals. I could be wrong about that on some level, but I can ask someone in the our state office if that is the case. I do know that they seem to go out of their way not to oppose NF Rules, but have modified rules to make it easier for some local issues that have come up, like modifying the uniform rules to not give Ts every time we have a basketball game.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

So if states that use the shot clock lose a seat, then the NFHS essentially excludes supporters of a high school shot clock from having a voice in making it an option..

This assumes a few things that can't be assumed.
1. That all supporters of the shot clock reside in states that use the shot clocks. I'm guessing there are a lot of people in Colorado, for example, who would like to see a shot clock at the high school level.
2. That no one in the states who use the shot clock has the ear of someone who is actually on the committee. See JRutledge's post.
3. That no state has decided not to use the shot clock in order to maintain their status on the rules committee. They support it, but don't use it in order to maintain their voting status. Membership in any organization often includes a requirement to adhere to the rules.

As Camron pointed out, little deviations (like uniform waivers or extended coaching boxes) probably won't do it, but using the shot clock, complete disregard for NFHS mechanics manuals, or altering the number of TFs required for DQ, probably would.

It's not unreasonable to require a minimal level of compliance to maintain full membership rights.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As Camron pointed out,...
, complete disregard for NFHS mechanics manuals,....

I doubt that would do it. A lot of states use alternate mechanics...they are simply guidelines, not rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A lot of states use alternate mechanics.

Every high school, and most prep school, officials in the Constitution State use IAABO mechanics, yet we are allowed full representation in NFHS business.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As Camron pointed out, little deviations (like uniform waivers or extended coaching boxes) probably won't do it, but using the shot clock, complete disregard for NFHS mechanics manuals, or altering the number of TFs required for DQ, probably would.

It's not unreasonable to require a minimal level of compliance to maintain full membership rights.

When Mary Struckoff was in her position with the NF, she came to our state and said that the NF does not care what mechanics states decide to use. And she gave an example of a certain state, which I am not going to not mention to offend anyone that wanted to do something very unique and the NF thought their mechanic was silly. But they did not care what they taught and it had nothing to do with membership. Mechanics books are guides and states can come up with their own procedures if they like towards mechanics. And as I have stated before, our state has not handed out Mechanics Manuals for almost a decade in any sport because what the NF does is considered outdated in many cases and hard to change. So when our state sees something that does not work, they change it to what does work.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When Mary Struckoff was in her position with the NF, she came to our state and said that the NF does not care what mechanics states decide to use. And she gave an example of a certain state, which I am not going to not mention to offend anyone that wanted to do something very unique and the NF thought their mechanic was silly. But they did not care what they taught and it had nothing to do with membership. Mechanics books are guides and states can come up with their own procedures if they like towards mechanics. And as I have stated before, our state has not handed out Mechanics Manuals for almost a decade in any sport because what the NF does is considered outdated in many cases and hard to change. So when our state sees something that does not work, they change it to what does work.

Peace

Let me guess:

State: Texas
Mechanic: Blowing the whistle upon officials entering the visual vicinity.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As Camron pointed out, little deviations (like uniform waivers or extended coaching boxes) probably won't do it, but using the shot clock, complete disregard for NFHS mechanics manuals, or altering the number of TFs required for DQ, probably would.

The way it was explained to me is that the NFHS categorizes rules based on "administrative" versus "playing" rules.

Rules about uniforms, officials' mechanics, etc, are considered administrative. Since modifying these rules should not fundamentally effect how the game is played, the NFHS doesn't care if you tweak them.

However, alterations to the "playing" rules, that could fundamentally effect how the game is played (e.g. shot clock, allowing illegal dribbles, changing how the pivot foot is established) is frowned upon and the "punishment" is the lack of vote that has been mentioned.