Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[Toren]

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

The one time I called this, it was about this level, and I had already warned the kid and his coach. After the warning, he flew backwards when the dribbler got to about 5-6 feet away; complete with Monica Seles grunt.

I would have warned him in your game, or talked to his coach. If he only did it once, though, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[rockyroad]

I have a hard time taking anything Van Gundy says seriously - usually turn the channel if he is announcing a game. All because of the Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild. So his opinions are really worthless in terms of rules and officiating, imo.

As far as the call - I liked it. It was an illegal screen attempting to keep the defender away from the shooter. Was the contact severe enough to cause the defender to go to the floor? Don't think so...but that doesn't mean it's a bad call.

[JWP]

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

I cannot speak for what they are doing at the JH or youth level, but when they get to HS, that stuff often goes uncalled. I think the guys in the NBA are much more talented to get away with it if it is taking place. Even this play it is possible the defender embellished, but he was pushed. But then again it does not take much to push down a guy that is off balance either, which is why JVG really needs to shut up on this particular play. I would understand if the situation was so obvious that hardly any contact took place, but this was not the play.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JWP

I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.
.

Wow.

Really???

Regardless of LGP? Regardless of who initiated the contact? Just gonna go with a block as an automatic call if you deem there was minimal contact?

Good luck. Let us know how that goes for you.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Just gonna go with a block as an automatic call if you deem there was minimal contact?

I thought he said he minimal contact "flops" as a block.

I was told if you want the flops to stop, call it a block & if you get pushback from the coach... "Would you prefer the T, by rule?"

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

I thought he said he minimal contact "flops" as a block.

I was told if you want the flops to stop, call it a block & if you get pushback from the coach... "Would you prefer the T, by rule?"

And the only way to judge that would be to have contact and have to judge that it was minimal. So why call a block? Why have to explain that call to a coach? Why not just call nothing as there really wasn't any contact?

To say "I'm going to call it a block" when it really isn't a block just open us up to a whole lot of trouble.

[Adam]

If I'm sure enough that he's "faking being fouled," I've got no problem warning him and then ringing him up if he does it again. I did it (warned) twice last season, and there were no repeat offenders.

Most cases involve a player bailing too early, but that's not illegal. Ever. The rules specifically allow the defender to move to absorb contact. Doing it early only reduces the chance of an actual foul, but it's not illegal, so I don't understand why people want to penalize this player with a block.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

...

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

Van Gundy is one of my least favorite commentators, for a number of reasons, but I have to say I completely agree with him here.

The reason why flopping has grown is simple. It continues to go unpunished. I find the blocking call on a flop to be a cop-out, and it does not directly with the issue -- that flopping is unsportsmanlike. It was indeed a POE about seven years ago in NFHS, thought I can't speak to whether it has actually helped curb it.

That said, I'm not above talking with a flopper first and whacking later, if needed. It is indeed a hard thing to positively see, and you shouldn't whack anyone unless you're positive.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The reason why flopping has grown is simple. It continues to go unpunished. I find the blocking call on a flop to be a cop-out, and it does not directly with the issue -- that flopping is unsportsmanlike. It was indeed a POI about seven years ago in NFHS, thought I can't speak to whether it has actually helped curb it.

Jeff Van Gundy is ABSOLUTELY right!!!!! Remember fellas...."you promote what you permit".

NBA/NCAA/NFHS could stop flopping if they want to, but they don't want to.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Jeff Van Gundy is ABSOLUTELY right!!!!! Remember fellas...."you promote what you permit".

NBA/NCAA/NFHS could stop flopping if they want to, but they don't want to.

And how could they stop it?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Jeff Van Gundy is ABSOLUTELY right!!!!! Remember fellas...."you promote what you permit".

NBA/NCAA/NFHS could stop flopping if they want to, but they don't want to.

He was not right based on the play he went off about. There was contact and there is no interpretation that says that kind of play is a clear violation of the rules at least with the NCAA or NF rules. And unless there is an NBA rule that says that plays with contact requires some decision making of flopping and how to deal with it, then JVG and you are taking your own personal feelings and trying to subject them onto a group that it may not apply to. There might be a problem with flopping, but I have not heard of it as such a problem where there is a clear example of when such penalties or actions should be taken on an officiating level. Heck we have all kinds of definitions for all kinds of behaviors, not seen one on what is flopping or not. I cannot think of a single play that I saw officiating this past year where a player flopped or I thought they flopped without some kind of contact and sometimes significant contact.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild.

[jump stop]

The problem with the way I see it for flops and charges alike is: if you don't fall to the ground or demonstrate that you were shoved or hit hard by acting out, you probably won't get the call.
If you take on an opposing player like a linebacker takes on an oncoming blocker by holding your ground you probably will get the foul called on yourself. Or if you take the charge by backing up a step or two instead of falling to the ground , there is a better chance of a no call.
So I don't see how you can change the flops or acting of players, just like in this instance. There is no way the player from NY could knock over the Miami player so easily with one arm. But if he would have stood his ground, there would not have been a call.