Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[rockyroad]

I have a hard time taking anything Van Gundy says seriously - usually turn the channel if he is announcing a game. All because of the Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild. So his opinions are really worthless in terms of rules and officiating, imo.

As far as the call - I liked it. It was an illegal screen attempting to keep the defender away from the shooter. Was the contact severe enough to cause the defender to go to the floor? Don't think so...but that doesn't mean it's a bad call.

[JWP]

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

I cannot speak for what they are doing at the JH or youth level, but when they get to HS, that stuff often goes uncalled. I think the guys in the NBA are much more talented to get away with it if it is taking place. Even this play it is possible the defender embellished, but he was pushed. But then again it does not take much to push down a guy that is off balance either, which is why JVG really needs to shut up on this particular play. I would understand if the situation was so obvious that hardly any contact took place, but this was not the play.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JWP

I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.
.

Wow.

Really???

Regardless of LGP? Regardless of who initiated the contact? Just gonna go with a block as an automatic call if you deem there was minimal contact?

Good luck. Let us know how that goes for you.

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Just gonna go with a block as an automatic call if you deem there was minimal contact?

I thought he said he minimal contact "flops" as a block.

I was told if you want the flops to stop, call it a block & if you get pushback from the coach... "Would you prefer the T, by rule?"

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

I thought he said he minimal contact "flops" as a block.

I was told if you want the flops to stop, call it a block & if you get pushback from the coach... "Would you prefer the T, by rule?"

And the only way to judge that would be to have contact and have to judge that it was minimal. So why call a block? Why have to explain that call to a coach? Why not just call nothing as there really wasn't any contact?

To say "I'm going to call it a block" when it really isn't a block just open us up to a whole lot of trouble.

[JWP]

Please excuse my lack of specifics and the generalization.

The play I have in mind is when the defensive player gets in position - usually in the key -- but the offensive player avoids contact on the way to the basket, or the contact is so minimal -- the brush type of contact -- that is does not impact the play. Yet, the defensive player goes flying, arms waving, using with sound effects.

(Or at the younger level, what is usually seen is the player falling straight down, having yet to perfect the backward launch.)

In the past, I have always no-called this. My thinking has been that by falling to the floor, he has self-penalized his team.

However, this is the type of flop that needs to be halted, because first, it flows against the character of the game, and second, it makes for a dangerous situation. There is now a player on the floor, and if the shot is missed, there are usually three to four players going after the rebound. The guy on the floor gets stepped on, ankles roll, other people fall ... it is just a bad situation.

A good warning early in the game is important, of course. But calling it tight from the get-go will send a message to both teams early.

FYI -- To the administrators, I really enjoy this forum. It is forcing me to think about the craft. I appreciate the work you and everyone puts in on this. Thanks.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JWP

Please excuse my lack of specifics and the generalization.

The play I have in mind is when the defensive player gets in position - usually in the key -- but the offensive player avoids contact on the way to the basket, or the contact is so minimal -- the brush type of contact -- that is does not impact the play. Yet, the defensive player goes flying, arms waving, using with sound effects.

(Or at the younger level, what is usually seen is the player falling straight down, having yet to perfect the backward launch.)

In the past, I have always no-called this. My thinking has been that by falling to the floor, he has self-penalized his team.

However, this is the type of flop that needs to be halted, because first, it flows against the character of the game, and second, it makes for a dangerous situation. There is now a player on the floor, and if the shot is missed, there are usually three to four players going after the rebound. The guy on the floor gets stepped on, ankles roll, other people fall ... it is just a bad situation.

A good warning early in the game is important, of course. But calling it tight from the get-go will send a message to both teams early.

FYI -- To the administrators, I really enjoy this forum. It is forcing me to think about the craft. I appreciate the work you and everyone puts in on this. Thanks.

If the contact itself isn't illegal (backing, bailing, or falling backwards prior to contact are all legal), then a block is, by rule, the wrong call. If that doesn't matter, and if your leadership wants you to call it that way, so be it.

But let's not pretend there's any rules backing whatsoever.

What you do have backing for is a warning and a technical foul if it continues. I've found a no-call, by itself, normally takes care of it. A no-call and a warning, however, always does it.

The warning doesn't have to include the direct threat of a T, either. Just letting the player know, verbally, that you saw him flop takes care of it. Twice this season I told the player that he would have probably gotten a foul call had he stayed in position longer, and neither of them did it again.

[Adam]

If I'm sure enough that he's "faking being fouled," I've got no problem warning him and then ringing him up if he does it again. I did it (warned) twice last season, and there were no repeat offenders.

Most cases involve a player bailing too early, but that's not illegal. Ever. The rules specifically allow the defender to move to absorb contact. Doing it early only reduces the chance of an actual foul, but it's not illegal, so I don't understand why people want to penalize this player with a block.

[tref]

When defenders bail early, in most cases the airborne shooter cannot land unhindered. Not always but when its obvious I call it & protect the airborne shooter.

On the minimal contact & lay down play, the shooter would have to be disadvantaged for a block call. But as others have suggested I like to be preventative and talk to them early when I can.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

When defenders bail early, in most cases the airborne shooter cannot land unhindered. Not always but when its obvious I call it & protect the airborne shooter.

On the minimal contact & lay down play, the shooter would have to be disadvantaged for a block call. But as others have suggested I like to be preventative and talk to them early when I can.

Agree with the talking to them...that is an excellent way to deal with it. Saying "I'm going to call all of those flops a block" is not an excellent way to deal with it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

When defenders bail early, in most cases the airborne shooter cannot land unhindered. Not always but when its obvious I call it & protect the airborne shooter.

Really? How can leaving early make the airborne shooter's landing any more hindered than staying put. By fading away from the shooter, they give the shooter MORE room to land. Had the stayed, the contact would have only been greater.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

...

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

Van Gundy is one of my least favorite commentators, for a number of reasons, but I have to say I completely agree with him here.

The reason why flopping has grown is simple. It continues to go unpunished. I find the blocking call on a flop to be a cop-out, and it does not directly with the issue -- that flopping is unsportsmanlike. It was indeed a POE about seven years ago in NFHS, thought I can't speak to whether it has actually helped curb it.

That said, I'm not above talking with a flopper first and whacking later, if needed. It is indeed a hard thing to positively see, and you shouldn't whack anyone unless you're positive.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The reason why flopping has grown is simple. It continues to go unpunished. I find the blocking call on a flop to be a cop-out, and it does not directly with the issue -- that flopping is unsportsmanlike. It was indeed a POI about seven years ago in NFHS, thought I can't speak to whether it has actually helped curb it.

Jeff Van Gundy is ABSOLUTELY right!!!!! Remember fellas...."you promote what you permit".

NBA/NCAA/NFHS could stop flopping if they want to, but they don't want to.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Jeff Van Gundy is ABSOLUTELY right!!!!! Remember fellas...."you promote what you permit".

NBA/NCAA/NFHS could stop flopping if they want to, but they don't want to.

And how could they stop it?