Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correct call...illegal screen. Even if he flopped, he was still fouled.

Now, as far as true flopping goes (which for the purposes of this discussion, I'll consider acts to draw the foul in absence of a real foul) I'd like to see them establish a rule to make it a personal foul against the flopper if there is contact that would otherwise not be a foul....and keep it a T if there is no contact.

I agree on the illegal screen...the defender did embellish the amount of contact, but it still rose to the level of illegal contact IMO. Just because a player embellishes the amount of contact doesn't necessarily make the contact not illegal.

What levels of play would you like to see your rule suggestion for?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I agree on the illegal screen...the defender did embellish the amount of contact, but it still rose to the level of illegal contact IMO. Just because a player embellishes the amount of contact doesn't necessarily make the contact not illegal.

What levels of play would you like to see your rule suggestion for?

All levels. We usually know when the player flops. If we were to call a few as automatic fouls on the flopper when they exaggerate the contact when there wasn't enough for a foul, they'll stop flopping pretty quickly. Now, the same would even more quickly happen if we called the T as specified in the book but a lot more officials would be willing to call the personal foul a long time before they'd be willing to call a T.

[JRutledge]

First of all that was not a flop and I do not consider that to be really an illegal screen, even though technically it would be. It just seemed like they were going for a loose ball and then the NY player pushed off after to keep the defender away. If it was a flop at all, it really was not that pronounced, it was slight as he got moved off his stop by the forearm. Van Gundy is not the best person to listen to about officiating issues because he goes on and on often about things that are not big issues. You would have thought that someone was fighting and threw a punch and he is going on an on what every player in every sport does to try to get the benefit of calls.

Peace

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I agree on the illegal screen...the defender did embellish the amount of contact, but it still rose to the level of illegal contact IMO. Just because a player embellishes the amount of contact doesn't necessarily make the contact not illegal.

What levels of play would you like to see your rule suggestion for?

The contact was small but I don't see that as a flop. I think flops are when there is zero contact or the player goes in a different direction the contact should take him. The judgement plays are where the player is stationary and takes a little contact like they were run over by a truck. When a player is on one leg or in a non stationary position it is easily possible to be knocked over with a little contact.
Either way... Illegal screen. Good call. Van Gundy is a minority, at least I think, in this issue.

[canuckrefguy]

Flop. You can see after the initial contact there's a tiny pause and then the defender throws himself backwards.

Also an offensive foul.

Maybe they need the NHL rule, where a player can be called for a hook/slash/hold/etc. but a player that embellishes can also simultaneously be called for "diving".

[Toren]

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

The one time I called this, it was about this level, and I had already warned the kid and his coach. After the warning, he flew backwards when the dribbler got to about 5-6 feet away; complete with Monica Seles grunt.

I would have warned him in your game, or talked to his coach. If he only did it once, though, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[rockyroad]

I have a hard time taking anything Van Gundy says seriously - usually turn the channel if he is announcing a game. All because of the Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild. So his opinions are really worthless in terms of rules and officiating, imo.

As far as the call - I liked it. It was an illegal screen attempting to keep the defender away from the shooter. Was the contact severe enough to cause the defender to go to the floor? Don't think so...but that doesn't mean it's a bad call.

[JWP]

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild.

[APG]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Maybe they need the NHL rule, where a player can be called for a hook/slash/hold/etc. but a player that embellishes can also simultaneously be called for "diving".

I think if any play would ever fit your scenario, it would be this one.

I do think there's a foul here...it's obvious the defender puts the forearm in the Evan's chest and pushes in retaliation for the hard, blind (legal) screen. But Reggie Evans does his best European soccer player impression on this play and is rightfully getting blasted in the media for it. One of the rare times, in an NBA game, where you'll see a flagrant foul penalty two get downgraded all the way to just a run-of-the-mill personal foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

One of the rare times, in an NBA game, where you'll see a flagrant foul penalty two get downgraded all the way to just a run-of-the-mill personal foul.

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

And even on this type of play, I'm okay with the personal foul on this call. That type of play can lead to escalation if not dealt with right away. But if the league wanted to treat this like they do technical fouls (in that points accumulate as does the amount of the fine...all leading to suspension at a threshold), then this would be the poster child for the type of play they should penalize.

On a side note, during the FIFA World Cup, I think they should review all yellow cards as those can lead to missed games. I also wouldn't mind if they assessed yellow cards after the fact, for diving...just like a technical foul or flagrant foul can be assessed after the fact in the NBA for the total number of points/total number needed for suspension.

[JRutledge]

And I would have no problem with such retroactive penalties in the NBA like the NFL does. It is after all a league and they can review every video to penalize such actions. As I said before it would have been much more appropriate to go crazy over this kind of play that started this thread.

Peace

[Adam]

I've found in my games a quick word normally takes care of it. "If you'd have stayed in position longer, he would have fouled you." I've gotten better at finding a moment to express it to the player.

I will say, if a player embellishes the contact (or starts to bail early), I'm a lot more likely to go with a no-call because it becomes harder to tell if the contact was illegal or not; and I'm giving the benefit to the offense in that case.

I've rarely had to even no-call this more than once in a game at the high school level. Once, I had a player repeat-offend after a no-call, so now I try to get a word in as quickly as possible.