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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 15, 2012, 09:42pm
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Agree or disagree

Losing team attempting to foul at the end of game. Player A1 fouls player B. Player A2, also trying to foul comes in about 0.5 secs after I blow my whistle for original foul. If Player A1 had not committed the foul, the foul comitted by A2 would have been a flagrant.

I called a common foul on A1 and a technical foul on A2 because it was a dead ball foul that I felt was committed with enough force to make that call.

Agree or disagree? Coach wasn't mad, and agrees with call but he felt I should have swallowed my whistle knowing they were trying to foul.
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Old Sun Apr 15, 2012, 10:07pm
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By rule...you would be correct. However, this would be a HTBT situation. If you felt A2's contact couldn't be ignored then you have no choice but to assess a T.

However for me, I'm giving a lot of leeway to A2 in that situation if as he is doing what you says they are just trying to stop the clock. If he's just trying to stop the clock I'm passing and closing hard on the play to make sure their is no extra stuff after it. But if it's something as blatant as a shove/direct push without going for the ball etc...I'll call the T.
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Old Sun Apr 15, 2012, 10:37pm
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Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
If Player A1 had not committed the foul, the foul comitted by A2 would have been a flagrant.
How does A1's foul change A2's foul from flagrant to non-flagrant?

If A2's contact was flagrant, then he should be ejceted whether A1 committed a foul or not.
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Old Sun Apr 15, 2012, 10:38pm
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If you have a flagrant foul, call it. No game situation is grounds for passing on a flagrant foul....live ball or dead ball, close game or blow, doesn't matter.

If it happens to be a dead ball, it becomes a T but the only effect that has is who gets to shoot the FTs and where the subsequent throwin is to occur. The fouler, in either case is ejected.
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2012, 08:29am
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I'm curious as to why a would be flagrant personal foul wasn't called a flagrant technical foul? Whether the ball is live or dead doesn't eliminate the flagrant act.
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2012, 08:34am
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I'd need to see the second foul, but if you felt it something you couldn't ignore than you did the correct thing. You can't ignore flagrant fouls. What you don't penalize you condone.
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2012, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
Losing team attempting to foul at the end of game. Player A1 fouls player B. Player A2, also trying to foul comes in about 0.5 secs after I blow my whistle for original foul. If Player A1 had not committed the foul, the foul comitted by A2 would have been a flagrant.

I called a common foul on A1 and a technical foul on A2 because it was a dead ball foul that I felt was committed with enough force to make that call.

Agree or disagree? Coach wasn't mad, and agrees with call but he felt I should have swallowed my whistle knowing they were trying to foul.
Trying to picture the play...did player A2 also foul player B? or was player A2 somewhere else on the court, off ball perhaps?
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2012, 09:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
Losing team attempting to foul at the end of game. Player A1 fouls player B. Player A2, also trying to foul comes in about 0.5 secs after I blow my whistle for original foul. If Player A1 had not committed the foul, the foul comitted by A2 would have been a flagrant.

I called a common foul on A1 and a technical foul on A2 because it was a dead ball foul that I felt was committed with enough force to make that call.

Agree or disagree? Coach wasn't mad, and agrees with call but he felt I should have swallowed my whistle knowing they were trying to foul.
One question: do you mean flagrant or do you mean intentional? It may sound nit-picky but it's the difference between the second defender being ejected.

Either way, as others have said, you shouldn't ignore it regardless of whether there was a foul committed immediately before. If there was that much contact, deal with it.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 01:51pm
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This is an interesting subject as I was observed at the end of a game this season when something fairly similar happened. Here it is Unsporting (Intentional in USA), or disqualifying (flagrant) or during a dead ball or no contact its a Technical. I knew that there was going to be an attempt to foul but waited for a "deserved" foul to blow my whistle. Briefly after the whistle I see the second defender come in and knock the offense player to the floor. So I got him with a Disqualifying foul and called the initial contact as a simple personal foul.
My observer asked me why I waited to make a call and if I thought calling the play sooner would have prevented the "Hard Foul"? I believe he was right and I set the kid up (a bit, he still clobbered his opponent).
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 03:47pm
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Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
This is an interesting subject as I was observed at the end of a game this season when something fairly similar happened. Here it is Unsporting (Intentional in USA), or disqualifying (flagrant) or during a dead ball or no contact its a Technical. I knew that there was going to be an attempt to foul but waited for a "deserved" foul to blow my whistle. Briefly after the whistle I see the second defender come in and knock the offense player to the floor. So I got him with a Disqualifying foul and called the initial contact as a simple personal foul.
My observer asked me why I waited to make a call and if I thought calling the play sooner would have prevented the "Hard Foul"? I believe he was right and I set the kid up (a bit, he still clobbered his opponent).
I hate observers who think like that. It is not the job of the officials to reward the team for trying to break the rules. The team which is trailing and wants to foul must do it properly. That means it needs to put the opponent at a disadvantage, but also has to be a basketball play and not excessive contact.
It is not your fault that the player wasn't able to foul correctly. Just like any other strategy which a team employs, it needs to be executed well.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 04:09pm
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Doesn't take much to get a whistle from me on EOG fouling strategies. We know what theyre trying to do & although it wasnt a foul in the 1stQ its an accepted practice at the EOG.
We either use common sense or a football game can break out on the wood.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 04:21pm
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Originally Posted by tref View Post
Doesn't take much to get a whistle from me on EOG fouling strategies. We know what theyre trying to do & although it wasnt a foul in the 1stQ its an accepted practice at the EOG.
We either use common sense or a football game can break out on the wood.
I concur...EOG fouling is different than fouls in other situations. And I've never heard an observer say anything different.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 10:15pm
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Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
I concur...EOG fouling is different than fouls in other situations. And I've never heard an observer say anything different.
Agree. When you know they're going to foul, call the first contact that gives you a reasonable opportunity to call one. Don't make them escalate to the point of an intentional or flagrant.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2012, 10:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Doesn't take much to get a whistle from me on EOG fouling strategies. We know what theyre trying to do & although it wasnt a foul in the 1stQ its an accepted practice at the EOG.
We either use common sense or a football game can break out on the wood.
I will have a quick whistle if the offense is, essentially, conceding the foul. If, however, the offense if actively trying to avoid the foul, I'm only calling an actual foul. Why should they be punished for having a lead?

I also keep an eye out for trouble, though. I called probably half a dozen intentionals in EOG situations this season; all in MS or JV games by players who just didn't know how to do it. The first thing I could even possibly call a foul on was a two hand shove or a slap on the back or....
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