22 often misunderstood rules... agree or disagree

[rotationslim]

I ran across this on the web, all look accurate to me, I want to distribute them to my rag-tag church league, just to help them better know the game. But I don't want to pass along any false info.. anyone disagree with any of these, (we play HS Rules)

The following statements are absolutely true.
1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.
2. There is no 3- second count during a throw-in!
3. There is no 3- second count on a player within the free throw circle and beyond the free throw line!
4. A player who is not a dribbler in control can keep a ball inbounds, go out of bounds, and return inbonds and play the ball!
5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not walking, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained!
6. Steps taken during a dribble are not walking, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place (it is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble)!
7. A high dribble is always legal provided the dribbler does not turn his/her hand over when he/she dribbles!
8. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it and/or advantage gained!
9. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot or pass that is blocked and returns to the floor with it, he/she has not travelled; it is (and should always be called) a jump ball!
10. It is a jump ball (alternating possession) when the ball lodges on or in the basket support, except during a throw-in or any free-throw where the ball is not going to remain alive because of another free-throw or some other reason.
11. Striking the ball handler or shooter on his/her hand, while it holding the ball, is not a foul- no matter how noisy or how much it hurts!
12. Players do not have to "face the circle" during a jump ball! A jumper may tap the ball simultaneously; he/she may tap the ball twice, and when a legally tapped ball touches the floor the jump ball has ended, and either jumper may recover it!
13. A 10 second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball.
14. A "moving screen" isn't a violation unless there is contact.
15. The offensive team, when closely guarded in the midcourt, does not have to "penetrate" into the forecourt in any situation, as they get a new 5-second count each time they pass the ball!
16. Any contact foul during a live ball is personal, not technical!
17. Any unsportsmanlike contact during a dead ball is a technical foul!
18. A defensive player who has a legal guarding position has not made a foul just because "he/she moved" during a "charge or block"play!
19. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is intentional!
20. An intentional foul always shoots 2, even if the basket is scored!
21. When an airborne shooter commits a player foul, his/her successful try for goal cannot be allowed, regardless of whether the try was released before or after the foul!
22. An official's whistle does not have to be "instantaneous" to prove a good call, because "effect upon the play" must be judged, and this may be immediate or there may be a short time lag!

[hawkk]

Originally posted by rotationslim
I ran across this on the web, all look accurate to me, I want to distribute them to my rag-tag church league, just to help them better know the game. But I don't want to pass along any false info.. anyone disagree with any of these, (we play HS Rules)

The following statements are absolutely true.
1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.
2. There is no 3- second count during a throw-in!
3. There is no 3- second count on a player within the free throw circle and beyond the free throw line!
4. A player who is not a dribbler in control can keep a ball inbounds, go out of bounds, and return inbonds and play the ball!
5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not walking, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained!
6. Steps taken during a dribble are not walking, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place (it is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble)!
7. A high dribble is always legal provided the dribbler does not turn his/her hand over when he/she dribbles!
8. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it and/or advantage gained!
9. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot or pass that is blocked and returns to the floor with it, he/she has not travelled; it is (and should always be called) a jump ball!
10. It is a jump ball (alternating possession) when the ball lodges on or in the basket support, except during a throw-in or any free-throw where the ball is not going to remain alive because of another free-throw or some other reason.
11. Striking the ball handler or shooter on his/her hand, while it holding the ball, is not a foul- no matter how noisy or how much it hurts!
12. Players do not have to "face the circle" during a jump ball! A jumper may tap the ball simultaneously; he/she may tap the ball twice, and when a legally tapped ball touches the floor the jump ball has ended, and either jumper may recover it!
13. A 10 second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball.
14. A "moving screen" isn't a violation unless there is contact.
15. The offensive team, when closely guarded in the midcourt, does not have to "penetrate" into the forecourt in any situation, as they get a new 5-second count each time they pass the ball!
16. Any contact foul during a live ball is personal, not technical!
17. Any unsportsmanlike contact during a dead ball is a technical foul!
18. A defensive player who has a legal guarding position has not made a foul just because "he/she moved" during a "charge or block"play!
19. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is intentional!
20. An intentional foul always shoots 2, even if the basket is scored!
21. When an airborne shooter commits a player foul, his/her successful try for goal cannot be allowed, regardless of whether the try was released before or after the foul!
22. An official's whistle does not have to be "instantaneous" to prove a good call, because "effect upon the play" must be judged, and this may be immediate or there may be a short time lag!

20 is not true: an intentional on a three point shooter who misses is 3 shots.

9 is debatable as phrased: it is a jump only if the block prevents the airborn player from releasing the ball -- maybe that is implied in the language here and maybe it isn't.

19 is probably incorrect by rule but correct as applied: ANY TIME a player fouls to stop the clock it is an intentional foul; the situations you list are the contexts in which it is likely to be actually called

If you're going to do a list like this, I'd certainly add in that it is not a travel if you rebound an airball. You might also add in that "over the back" and "reaching" are not fouls, but then you'd also want to explain what would result in a foul.

[Mark Padgett]

In number 12, the jump also ends when the tapped ball touches a player other than a non-jumper or (believe it or not) a backboard.

[Int]

23. There is no requirement for both teams to have the same number of fouls.
24. The line around the court is out-of-bounds... always! A player making a throw in who steps on the line is still out of bounds and has not violated.

Anyone have another to round it out to 25?

[JRutledge]

The following statements are absolutely true.

1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

The release does not end a three second count, it ends technically on a try for goal (if you decide to start it at all )

2. There is no 3- second count during a throw-in!

True

3. There is no 3- second count on a player within the free throw circle and beyond the free throw line!

True. These are not considered apart of the lane.


4. A player who is not a dribbler in control can keep a ball inbounds, go out of bounds, and return inbonds and play the ball!

Yes. That is a football logic applied to a basketball game.


5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not walking, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained!

If you rule it to be a fumble, a player can always recover their own fumble. It can only be a violation depending on what they were doing before the fumble.


6. Steps taken during a dribble are not walking, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place (it is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble)!

Yes.


7. A high dribble is always legal provided the dribbler does not turn his/her hand over when he/she dribbles!

Well the dribble ends if they turn their hand over as you state. But a high dribble is totally legal.

8. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it and/or advantage gained!

Yes, a kick must be intentional to be a violation.

9. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot or pass that is blocked and returns to the floor with it, he/she has not travelled; it is (and should always be called) a jump ball!

Would not say that it is always a held ball, it could just be a block and nothing else.

10. It is a jump ball (alternating possession) when the ball lodges on or in the basket support, except during a throw-in or any free-throw where the ball is not going to remain alive because of another free-throw or some other reason.

You will have a AP situations if this takes place. But if a FT or throw in is to follow, no.

11. Striking the ball handler or shooter on his/her hand, while it holding the ball, is not a foul- no matter how noisy or how much it hurts!

Pretty much.

12. Players do not have to "face the circle" during a jump ball! A jumper may tap the ball simultaneously; he/she may tap the ball twice, and when a legally tapped ball touches the floor the jump ball has ended, and either jumper may recover it!

A jump ball also ends when it touches a non-jumper, the basket and backboard as well.

13. A 10 second count continues when the defense deflects or bats the ball.

Yes in thoery. But if they gain possession, the count ends.

14. A "moving screen" isn't a violation unless there is contact.

Well it is not a violation at all. And even if there is contact, there must be come kind of displacement or affect the defenders normal movements.

15. The offensive team, when closely guarded in the midcourt, does not have to "penetrate" into the forecourt in any situation, as they get a new 5-second count each time they pass the ball!

Closely guarded can only take place in the frontcourt. It can only take place if a defender is guarding within 6 feet of the player with the ball. So if they pass the ball to another player and they have no defender within 6 feet, you cannot have a count.

16. Any contact foul during a live ball is personal, not technical!

You can have a Flagrant Foul called during a live ball.

17. Any unsportsmanlike contact during a dead ball is a technical foul!

Pretty much any unsportsmanlike act is a Technical foul.

18. A defensive player who has a legal guarding position has not made a foul just because "he/she moved" during a "charge or block"play!

Moving is not the issue. Where they move to is the issue. If a defender is backing up, moving sideways, you cannot by rule call a foul on them. If they are moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender. But a defender can always move to maintain legal guarding position.

19. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is intentional!

In theory, but not the exact definition. And and intentional foul is not automatically based on the severity of the action.

20. An intentional foul always shoots 2, even if the basket is scored!

No. It could be 3 if a shoot is taken as a three point shot and missed. But every other non-shooting intentional foul is 2 shots and the ball (spot of the foul).


21. When an airborne shooter commits a player foul, his/her successful try for goal cannot be allowed, regardless of whether the try was released before or after the foul!

True

22. An official's whistle does not have to be "instantaneous" to prove a good call, because "effect upon the play" must be judged, and this may be immediate or there may be a short time lag!

Basketball Fundamental #16--The Official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Peace

[donj]

20. An intentional foul always shoots 2, even if the basket is scored!

No. It could be 3 if a shoot is taken as a three point shot and missed. But every other non-shooting intentional foul is 2 shots and the ball (spot of the foul).

If it's an intentional foul on attempt and successful, does the player get one or two shots? Thanks

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by donj
20. An intentional foul always shoots 2, even if the basket is scored!

No. It could be 3 if a shoot is taken as a three point shot and missed. But every other non-shooting intentional foul is 2 shots and the ball (spot of the foul).

If it's an intentional foul on attempt and successful, does the player get one or two shots? Thanks

Intentional fouls:

non-shooting / 2 shots and ball

shooting unsuccessfully / 2 shots and ball except 3 shots on 3 point attempt

shooting successfully / 2 shots and ball on both 2 and 3 point attempt

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by rotationslim

The following statements are absolutely true.
1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

...unless of course the defense gets the rebound, whereupon the ball would have to cross the division line going the other way for a 3-second count to begin.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge




9. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot or pass that is blocked and returns to the floor with it, he/she has not travelled; it is (and should always be called) a jump ball!

Would not say that it is always a held ball, it could just be a block and nothing else.

With an airborne shooter the moment the release of the ball is prevented you have a held ball. Returning to the floor has nothing to do with it.


14. A "moving screen" isn't a violation unless there is contact.

Well it is not a violation at all. And even if there is contact, there must be come kind of displacement or affect the defenders normal movements.

Lets be clear on this. The act of screening while moving is nothing. If there is contact caused by the screener you have a judgment call to make. Officials generally look for displacement caused by the contact. One area where I am very nonforgiving is where there is blind side contact. The defender does not see the hit coming because it is outside of his/her field of vision. Displacement or not I call a "push foul."



15. The offensive team, when closely guarded in the midcourt, does not have to "penetrate" into the forecourt in any situation, as they get a new 5-second count each time they pass the ball!

Closely guarded can only take place in the frontcourt. It can only take place if a defender is guarding within 6 feet of the player with the ball. So if they pass the ball to another player and they have no defender within 6 feet, you cannot have a count.

Even more. You can go 12 seconds with a defender within 6ft and not have a 5 second call. Hold the ball for 4 seconds, dribble the ball for 4 seconds, and again hold the ball for 4 seconds. Also, IÂ’ve never seen a ref, or have I, continue the count if the dribbler gets his head and shoulders pass the defender while moving North/South on the court (towards the basket.)



Peace

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge


1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

The release does not end a three second count, it ends technically on a try for goal (if you decide to start it at all )

Is the release not the start of the try?

9.7.1 A player shall not remain for three seconds in the
lane.....while the ball is in control of
his/her team.......

4.12.3a Team control continues until the ball is
in flight during a try or tap for goal.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by just another ref
1. There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts.

The release does not end a three second count, it ends technically on a try for goal (if you decide to start it at all )

Is the release not the start of the try?

9.7.1 A player shall not remain for three seconds in the
lane.....while the ball is in control of
his/her team.......

4.12.3a Team control continues until the ball is
in flight during a try or tap for goal. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well look at 9-7-3:

Allowances shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than 3 seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

It is not about when Team Control ends, it is about what is proper to call 3 seconds. If the rules says give them allowances for a try for goal, that does not include the release of the ball. And 4-40 also states what a try for goal actually is. It is not just about the release.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Is the release not the start of the try?

9.7.1 A player shall not remain for three seconds in the
lane.....while the ball is in control of
his/her team.......

4.12.3a Team control continues until the ball is
in flight during a try or tap for goal.

Well look at 9-7-3:

Allowances shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than 3 seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

It is not about when Team Control ends, it is about what is proper to call 3 seconds. If the rules says give them allowances for a try for goal, that does not include the release of the ball. And 4-40 also states what a try for goal actually is. It is not just about the release.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

9-7-3 refers to when the player in the lane is the one with
the ball.
In the earlier example A1 is in the lane, but the count stops when A2 releases a shot.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by just another ref

9-7-3 refers to when the player in the lane is the one with
the ball.
In the earlier example A1 is in the lane, but the count stops when A2 releases a shot.

You are talking about Team Control, I am talking about the application of the 3 second rule. It clearly says to give allowances for a try for goal as well as a dribble. Yes you must have Team Control to call 3 seconds, but the rulebook clearly wants allowances to be given for taking an attempt at the goal.

Now if you want to call a 3 second call while a player is in the process of shooting the ball, so be it. But I do not think that is good common sense officiating. Just like many officials want a release before they will award a shooting foul when contact is made on the ball handler. And since 9-7 is the only place I am aware of that goes into detail about the rule, nothing is stated about a release. Nothing in the Casebook talks about release either.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[B][QUOTE
You are talking about Team Control, I am talking about the application of the 3 second rule. It clearly says to give allowances for a try for goal as well as a dribble.

The two things are related in this case. The 3 second count ends when team control ends. Agreed? The allowance you refer to in 9-7-3 states: Allowance shall be made for
a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal. My interpretation here is that this refers to a player in the lane with the ball. Also, if I am watching a player in the lane and the ball is on the opposite side of the court, I probably will not know if that player is about to shoot or not.

And since 9-7 is the only place I am aware of that goes into detail about the rule, nothing is stated about a release. Nothing in the Casebook talks about release either.

The word release is not used, but in the definition of control it says team control ends when the ball is "in flight" which in my mind is the same as when it is released.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by just another ref
[B]

The two things are related in this case. The 3 second count ends when team control ends. Agreed? The allowance you refer to in 9-7-3 states: Allowance shall be made for
a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal. My interpretation here is that this refers to a player in the lane with the ball. Also, if I am watching a player in the lane and the ball is on the opposite side of the court, I probably will not know if that player is about to shoot or not.

The word release is not used, but in the definition of control it says team control ends when the ball is "in flight" which in my mind is the same as when it is released.

Why do you keep bringing up Team Control? You can have Team Control and never have a 3 second count at all. If no player with the team that is in control of the ball is in the lane, it does not even matter.

So again, you have not shown me anything in the rulebook that talks about Team control in the situation that was described earlier. The original question was about not what had to take place to have a 3 second violation was "There is no 3-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts?" All I wanted to illustrate was the release of a shot does not play a factor. And if you are calling a 3 second violation while a player is in the "act of shooting" you have not done the proper thing in my opinion. But if you see release as being a factor, then release is a factor to you. That is not how many of the officials I know called it. But if a player is just about to release the ball and you are blowing your whistle, then I do not know of many officials that would call it so tight. Not only am I talking about the rules, but I am talking about common sense. Common sense has to play apart in the application of this rule and many others.

Peace