As requested by Snaqwell

[APG]

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[Scrapper1]

Is this Flagrant 1 in NCAA? It's elbow contact above the shoulders, but it doesn't look like it results from pivoting.

[JRutledge]

I think it was totally inadvertent. John Adams said that we should not call FF1 on plays where there is elbow contact on a normal movement. He did not swing his arms, he was catching a pass above his head. I got nothing in NCAA rules.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Is this Flagrant 1 in NCAA? It's elbow contact above the shoulders, but it doesn't look like it results from pivoting.

Yes.

While contact with the elbow need not be an automatic foul if it is incidental, when the contact with the elbow is sufficient for a foul and it is above the shoulders, it is an automatic FF1 (or FF2 if it is from excessive swinging of the elbows).

The was clearly not incidental as they did call an offensive foul on the play. So, under NCAA rules, it would be a FF1.

From the NCAA rulebook:

Men’s Changes for 2012 and 2013
Definitions. 4-29.2.c.6. In summary, contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a is a flagrant 1 personal foul and results in two free throws and the ball awarded to the offended team (2010-2011 rule change).

4-29-2c:
A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.

[BillyMac]

Timberwolves All-Star Kevin Love suffers mild concussion after taking elbow to head - The Washington Post

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it was totally inadvertent. John Adams said that we should not call FF1 on plays where there is elbow contact on a normal movement. He did not swing his arms, he was catching a pass above his head. I got nothing in NCAA rules.

Peace

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

Well of course as the benefit of replay that is what we could clearly see, but what if you think the contact is not with the elbow alone or the official did not think the contact was with the elbow?

I will go back and look at the bulletins, but I believe that this was address and it was said that all contact was not to be called a FF when it was apart of normal basketball movements. Now this was very close, but I was under the impression at least by interpretation not to make all contact with the elbow a FF.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

I actually was going through that same thought process before I replied so I re-examined the rule and case books to see if there were any allowances for any foul involving contact above the shoulders by an elbow to be deemed as non-Flagrant. As we've both stated there are none.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I actually was going through that same thought process before I replied so I re-examined the rule and case books to see if there were any allowances for any foul involving contact above the shoulders by an elbow to be deemed as non-Flagrant. As we've both stated there are none.

Me too

If we dont deem it flagrant our only out is to not put a whistle on it & it falls into incidental contact... right??

[bainsey]

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Me too

If we dont deem it flagrant our only out is to not put a whistle on it & it falls into incidental contact... right??

Yep, JA has put out a couple videos demonstrating officials incorrectly downgrading to IW after going to the monitor. And in one of those plays the primary (Lead/New Trail) did not have a whistle but the 2 outside officials did and it turned out there was no contact at all.

However, I wish, that if we go to the monitor and see there is no "elbow/above shoulder" contact that we at least be allowed to downgrade to common foul.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

It can still be a p/c in HS, elbow contact above the shoulders cannot be a p/c in college.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

Either PC or nothing, depending on your judgement.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

On that play, I'd have a basic NFHS PC foul.