As requested by Snaqwell

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

I actually was going through that same thought process before I replied so I re-examined the rule and case books to see if there were any allowances for any foul involving contact above the shoulders by an elbow to be deemed as non-Flagrant. As we've both stated there are none.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I actually was going through that same thought process before I replied so I re-examined the rule and case books to see if there were any allowances for any foul involving contact above the shoulders by an elbow to be deemed as non-Flagrant. As we've both stated there are none.

Me too

If we dont deem it flagrant our only out is to not put a whistle on it & it falls into incidental contact... right??

[bainsey]

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

[tref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

It can still be a p/c in HS, elbow contact above the shoulders cannot be a p/c in college.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

Either PC or nothing, depending on your judgement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Either PC or nothing, depending on your judgement.

I even think it could be a block if you deem the defender not being in a legal position (just for debate purposes). But I do not see this elbow being anything I would call other than a regular foul.

Peace

[Adam]

Thanks, the local radio tool in Denver was screaming that it should have been a block.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I even think it could be a block if you deem the defender not being in a legal position (just for debate purposes).

I don't see how. LGP or no LGP, if you take an elbow to the temple, how can that be on you?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Interesting. So, how would this translate down to NFHS? Incidental? Foul? (I can't see intentional here.)

On that play, I'd have a basic NFHS PC foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Me too

If we dont deem it flagrant our only out is to not put a whistle on it & it falls into incidental contact... right??

Yep, JA has put out a couple videos demonstrating officials incorrectly downgrading to IW after going to the monitor. And in one of those plays the primary (Lead/New Trail) did not have a whistle but the 2 outside officials did and it turned out there was no contact at all.

However, I wish, that if we go to the monitor and see there is no "elbow/above shoulder" contact that we at least be allowed to downgrade to common foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

If we dont deem it flagrant our only out is to not put a whistle on it & it falls into incidental contact... right??

Not exactly the right thinking.

You don't judge if it was flagrant then decide to blow the whistle. You decide if a foul occurred and call it. If called and it was an elbow above the shoulders, it is automatically upgraded to FF1.

The elbow contact doesn't have to be flagrant in nature to be FF1...just simply a foul above the shoulders involving the elbow.

It is a deterrent to having the elbows in a position that could cause harm, even on basic fouls.

[tref]

Ok makes sense, I just like to be cognizant of the consequences of my whistles before I blow it.
In the play under NCAA rules, are you calling that a FF1?