As requested by Snaqwell

[APG]

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[Scrapper1]

Is this Flagrant 1 in NCAA? It's elbow contact above the shoulders, but it doesn't look like it results from pivoting.

[JRutledge]

I think it was totally inadvertent. John Adams said that we should not call FF1 on plays where there is elbow contact on a normal movement. He did not swing his arms, he was catching a pass above his head. I got nothing in NCAA rules.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it was totally inadvertent. John Adams said that we should not call FF1 on plays where there is elbow contact on a normal movement. He did not swing his arms, he was catching a pass above his head. I got nothing in NCAA rules.

Peace

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

Well of course as the benefit of replay that is what we could clearly see, but what if you think the contact is not with the elbow alone or the official did not think the contact was with the elbow?

I will go back and look at the bulletins, but I believe that this was address and it was said that all contact was not to be called a FF when it was apart of normal basketball movements. Now this was very close, but I was under the impression at least by interpretation not to make all contact with the elbow a FF.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well of course as the benefit of replay that is what we could clearly see, but what if you think the contact is not with the elbow alone or the official did not think the contact was with the elbow?

I will go back and look at the bulletins, but I believe that this was address and it was said that all contact was not to be called a FF when it was apart of normal basketball movements. Now this was very close, but I was under the impression at least by interpretation not to make all contact with the elbow a FF.

Peace

Normal basketball movement means moving to occupy an empty space, not space already occupied by someone else's head. A2 was responsible to keep his elbows down and legal.

It's akin to the focus on hockey hits in the CHL.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As Camron said, once this was whistled a foul on McGee, because of the contact with the elbow to Love's face, you have to go with at least a FF1 if this were a NCAA game. Choices are nothing (incidental contact/no foul), FF1, or FF2.

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

All that said, and even in spite of the result of this foul, I really don't think all elbow fouls should be FF1+. I think there is a class of elbow fouls that are inadvertent but clearly a foul that should still be common fouls....but the NCAA rules do not support that option.

In this case, the action, while sufficient for a foul, really wasn't an "elbow foul" in the sense of what the NCAA rule was trying to address. It happened to involve the elbow but the shooter didn't lead with his elbow anymore than a normal shooter does. It was merely coincidental to a pretty basic player control foul. Yet, the NCAA rules don't give an option less than FF1.

I actually was going through that same thought process before I replied so I re-examined the rule and case books to see if there were any allowances for any foul involving contact above the shoulders by an elbow to be deemed as non-Flagrant. As we've both stated there are none.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I even think it could be a block if you deem the defender not being in a legal position (just for debate purposes). But I do not see this elbow being anything I would call other than a regular foul.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it was totally inadvertent. John Adams said that we should not call FF1 on plays where there is elbow contact on a normal movement. He did not swing his arms, he was catching a pass above his head. I got nothing in NCAA rules.

So would you call a foul or not on this play?

Would you call a foul in an NFHS game?
Would you call a foul in an NCAA game?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So would you call a foul or not on this play?

Would you call a foul in an NFHS game?
Would you call a foul in an NCAA game?

I do not call the game differently from a HS or college game. The issue I was raising was not if a foul should be called, but if we should call a Flagrant Foul or not according to NCAA Men's Rules (I do not work Women's so I have no idea if there is a different classification).

This is what I found on page 12 of the NCAA Rulebook under the heading, "Major Officiating Concerns for Men."

Flagrant 1 or Flagrant 2 Fouls for Elbow Contact

Officials are reminded that there can be incidental contact with the elbow above
or below the shoulders; swinging of the elbow is required for the foul to be
classified as a flagrant 1 or 2 foul. Some incidental contact is being penalized
improperly.

The ball handler did not swing the elbows in this play to create space or create contact purposely with the elbows. The ball handler was moving to the basket after they received above their head to likely shoot. Kevin Love seemed to be in a legal position and a foul was properly called a PC foul IMO. Now the NBA does not have the same rules with elbow contact to my understanding so nothing more than an PC or offensive foul was called, which I would agree with if this was an NCAA game. There is no such classification of a FF1 or FF2 in NF Rules, so that would not cross my mind at that level and there are no elbow rules to suggest that only an intentional foul should be called just for these kinds of plays.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Is this Flagrant 1 in NCAA? It's elbow contact above the shoulders, but it doesn't look like it results from pivoting.

Yes.

While contact with the elbow need not be an automatic foul if it is incidental, when the contact with the elbow is sufficient for a foul and it is above the shoulders, it is an automatic FF1 (or FF2 if it is from excessive swinging of the elbows).

The was clearly not incidental as they did call an offensive foul on the play. So, under NCAA rules, it would be a FF1.

From the NCAA rulebook:

Men’s Changes for 2012 and 2013
Definitions. 4-29.2.c.6. In summary, contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a is a flagrant 1 personal foul and results in two free throws and the ball awarded to the offended team (2010-2011 rule change).

4-29-2c:
A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.

[BillyMac]

Timberwolves All-Star Kevin Love suffers mild concussion after taking elbow to head - The Washington Post

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While contact with the elbow need not be an automatic foul if it is incidental, when the contact with the elbow is sufficient for a foul and it is above the shoulders, it is an automatic FF1 (or FF2 if it is from excessive swinging of the elbows).

From the NCAA rulebook:

Men’s Changes for 2012 and 2013
Definitions. 4-29.2.c.6. In summary, contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a is a flagrant 1 personal foul and results in two free throws and the ball awarded to the offended team (2010-2011 rule change).

This comment on the rule is badly written. It does not say what the rule actually means. The comment above says that any elbow contact above the shoulders when the elbows are not swung excessively is a FF1. So technically, by the wording of this comment, if a player jumps for a rebound and, on the way back to the ground, his elbow touches the head of an opponent who didn't even jump, it's a FF1.

But this is not what the rulemakers intended, as evidenced by Jeff's post earlier:

Officials are reminded that there can be incidental contact with the elbow above or below the shoulders; swinging of the elbow is required for the foul to be classified as a flagrant 1 or 2 foul. Some incidental contact is being penalized improperly.

The comment quoted by Camron above should read:"contact with a swinging elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a is a flagrant 1 personal foul and results in two free throws and the ball awarded to the offended team."