Whutz da cawl?

[Mark Padgett]

A ref buddy told me a guy he worked a game with last fall asked him this rules question. Apparently, this situation came up in a game under NF rules. He wasn't sure of the correct rule interp, so he thought he'd ask me - not that he thought I would know it, but that I would post it.

A1 takes a jump shot. It's a legitimate shot attempt but it goes over the rim. A2 jumps up and tips it in (legally) while A1 is still airborne. After the shot goes in, A1 comes down on B1 who had LGP and A1 is called for the foul. The question is, does the shot count or is it waived off because the airborne shooter committed the foul? I guess the question is, does the fact that the original shot missed and was then touched (and scored) by another player change things? IOW - did A1 lose status as an airborne shooter when A2 touched the ball? Also - if he loses that status, then does the foul become a dead ball foul (since the shot went in before the foul) and can only be called if intentional and/or flagrant?

[APG]

Rule 4
SECTION 1 AIRBORNE SHOOTER
ART. 1 . . . An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor

I would guess that it would still be a player control foul as player is still an airborne shooter until a foot returns to the floor. There's nothing in the rule book stating that if there's a second try (no matter how unlikely) that a player loses his airborne shooter status.

If I had to answer on a test, I'd say no basket....player control foul

[JRutledge]

I would think that if this is called the ball would have to be considered dead. It clearly seem to be an unintended hole in the rule or something that is so rare it would not matter. And even with that being said I find it rather difficult to see a situation where all of that happen so fast on a bad shot that the contact would not take place before the second shot attempt was made. I would just wave off the basket as the calling official or not add anything if my partner made the call based on what I think the rule currently says.

Peace

[reffish]

Mark,

Great question. My first reaction was shot ended with second try by A2, so A1 is no longer a shooter, however, A1 has not returned to floor. But the ball is dead after the made shot and there cannot be a common foul during a dead ball, only flag or intentional or ignore if contact is of such nature. So my answer is ignore contact in this play and play on.

[APG]

Originally Posted by reffish

Mark,

Great question. My first reaction was shot ended with second try by A2, so A1 is no longer a shooter, however, A1 has not returned to floor. But the ball is dead after the made shot and there cannot be a common foul during a dead ball, only flag or intentional or ignore if contact is of such nature. So my answer is ignore contact in this play and play on.

Just because the try ended doesn't mean A1 isn't an airborne shooter...as he's still an airborne shooter until he returns to the floor. And the ball being dead has no relevance on calling a foul on/by an airborne shooter

Rule 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

Of course, I have a hard time even imagining this kind of play.

[Camron Rust]

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the play really could occur...

Airborne shooter, PC foul.

Basketball rules fundamental...

20. If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted.

Taken literally, this would mean that once a player control foul has been committed, that team could no longer score for the rest of the game. But we all know it is really talking only about the goal taken in conjugation with the PC foul.

In principle, It is retroactively killing the play to wipe the score since an illegal act was part of creating the score. As such, I assert that this basket wouldn't count either.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Basketball rules fundamental. 20. If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted.

Camron Rust: Nice citation.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the play really could occur...

Airborne shooter, PC foul.

Basketball rules fundamental...

20. If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted.

Taken literally, this would mean that once a player control foul has been committed, that team could no longer score for the rest of the game. But we all know it is really talking only about the goal taken in conjugation with the PC foul.

In principle, I is retroactively killing the play to wipe the score since an illegal act was part of creating the score. As such, I assert that this basket wouldn't count either.

I think I like this one the best, especially the last paragraph.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

A1 takes a jump shot. It's a legitimate shot attempt but it goes over the rim. A2 jumps up and tips it in (legally) while A1 is still airborne. After the shot goes in, A1 comes down on B1 who had LGP and A1 is called for the foul. The question is, does the shot count or is it waived off because the airborne shooter committed the foul? I guess the question is, does the fact that the original shot missed and was then touched (and scored) by another player change things? IOW - did A1 lose status as an airborne shooter when A2 touched the ball? Also - if he loses that status, then does the foul become a dead ball foul (since the shot went in before the foul) and can only be called if intentional and/or flagrant?

Since the scenario described in the OP can't happen - based on the natural laws of gravity, physics, and basketball - I don't have to worry about this play ever happening....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by camron rust

assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the play really could occur...

Airborne shooter, pc foul.

Basketball rules fundamental...

20. If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted.

Taken literally, this would mean that once a player control foul has been committed, that team could no longer score for the rest of the game. But we all know it is really talking only about the goal taken in conjugation with the pc foul.

In principle, it is retroactively killing the play to wipe the score since an illegal act was part of creating the score. As such, i assert that this basket wouldn't count either.

+1