ND vs Temple

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by justacoach

L3:
If you can be as big a doofus as Duffman I'll let you play along!!!

I'll just have to sit this one out.

[Duffman]

Again here is the deal guys. I'm probably the least arrogant official any of you have ever known. I'm not territorial, I realize I don't know everything (yet) and am not afraid to lean on my veteran partners when need be, and I only truly care about getting it right. Further I'm everything that’s RIGHT about the future of officiating. I'm young enough to understand what players want from officials, I've coached enough to understand what coaches want from officials, and I'm far enough removed from playing and coaching (as well as mature enough) to realize what players and coaches want isn't always what they need (or what has to be done) from officials.

I used the example of the “hand fighting” violation for a reason. It was posted that A/D is a factor for fouls only and not violations (whether you call it A/D or enforcing the intent of the rule is merely semantics) and I disagree with that. To demonstrate I posted an example of a violation that occurs that we frequently ignore (a post person opposite of the ball with a toe on the lane stripe for 3+ seconds) and an example of something that isn’t really a violation at all that can be called one in the right circumstance.

Show me where in the rule book it prohibits a defensive player from screaming or counting to five loudly and quickly in the face of a player attempting to inbound the ball. Then show me an official who wouldn’t put a stop to that despite not having the justification to do so (spare me the unsportsmanlike T as that only applies to baiting and taunting).

Instead of discussing the matter or even attempting to figure out what I meant or where I was coming from some of you guys held a contest to see who’s rules-penis was bigger (which BTW is a fairly common occurrence around here). My response that it was a violation of the "I told you to knock that off" rule was not arrogant, or emotional at all reallly. It was merely a factual answer to a direct question.

Regardless I don’t think there is much I can accomplish by hanging out here. The little new information I’ve learned isn’t worth the time it takes to sort through the dozen or so daily posts promising free movie downloads, and most of the conversations here turn into a bunch of old ladies arguing about who cheated in bridge last Thursday.

As for me I’ll be fine. I’ve gone from working youth and JV games only 3 years ago to working a full season of varsity including 4 tournament games (2 boys and 2 girls) this year. I’ve got a handful of JV college dates on my schedule for next year, as well as 2 dates from a local juco. I’ve been invited to attend two college officiating camps by the respective guy’s that run them and assign officials for the local D2 and NAIA conferences in my general area. That tells me I must be doing something right, so I’ll just keep on keeping on.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Duffman

(spare me the unsportsmanlike T as that only applies to baiting and taunting).

I don't really care what you and the others have been arguing about. I just want you to clarify this point. Because this statement by itself is not correct. There are plenty of ways a player can earn a T for unsporting behavior that is neither baiting or taunting.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Show me where in the rule book it prohibits a defensive player from screaming or counting to five loudly and quickly in the face of a player attempting to inbound the ball. Then show me an official who wouldn’t put a stop to that despite not having the justification to do so (spare me the unsportsmanlike T as that only applies to baiting and taunting).

This is why you need to know the rules better.

As for the rest, it's up to you. Stay, go away, just don't be so dramatic about it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Again here is the deal guys. I'm probably the least arrogant official any of you have ever known. I'm not territorial, I realize I don't know everything (yet) and am not afraid to lean on my veteran partners when need be, and I only truly care about getting it right. Further I'm everything that’s RIGHT about the future of officiating.

That is about the most arrogant statement I think a person could make.

Originally Posted by Duffman

Regardless I don’t think there is much I can accomplish by hanging out here. The little new information I’ve learned isn’t worth the time it takes to sort through the dozen or so daily posts promising free movie downloads, and most of the conversations here turn into a bunch of old ladies arguing about who cheated in bridge last Thursday.

Exxagerate much? Dozen "daily" posts....that has happened maybe twice in a few months that I've seen.

You're just looking for excuses to say you're better than the rest...really another arrogant line.

Originally Posted by Duffman

As for me I’ll be fine. I’ve gone from working youth and JV games only 3 years ago to working a full season of varsity including 4 tournament games (2 boys and 2 girls) this year. I’ve got a handful of JV college dates on my schedule for next year, as well as 2 dates from a local juco. I’ve been invited to attend two college officiating camps by the respective guy’s that run them and assign officials for the local D2 and NAIA conferences in my general area. That tells me I must be doing something right, so I’ll just keep on keeping on.

And you've got a BUNCH of people here who have done things right and have done many of those games and more. Your loss if you think you've got nothing to learn from the people here. You may not know who they are, but many of the posters are quite accomplished.

The enemy of getting better is exactly your attitude. Shut people out that challenge you just because you've had a little success.


Your kind has come and gone and will keep passing through. We will not miss you.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I'll answer that.

I don't like FT violations on MADE free throws. With the exception of the shooter, I don't think either team should be penalized. No advantage is gained when the ball goes in the basket. Why penalize the offense on a made FT, just because someone steps in?

It's a bad rule.

The FIBA rule is exactly like this and I like it alot. If the ball goes in we ignore the vioaltions unless it's the FT shooter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I hate violations that are called tha have little if any advantage/disadvantage.

That said I'm in a bar amd the telecast focused on the players in marked spaces opposite of camera. I've since seen a replay and agree with the call on the player outside the arc entering early.

Duffman:

I just now saw and read this post. From the date of your post, it is obvious that I think you started celebrating St. Paddy's day a little early and it must have clouded your judgement. ROFLMAO!!

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

To demonstrate I posted an example of a violation that occurs that we frequently ignore (a post person opposite of the ball with a toe on the lane stripe for 3+ seconds) and an example of something that isn’t really a violation at all that can be called one in the right circumstance.

Here's the deal: A/D is, essentially, written into the rules for fouls in the incidental contact rule. It is not written into the rules for violations. It is, however, considered on some violations, by practice. 3 seconds, as you note, is done this way. Palming is another one that is done that way, although not to the same degree, as is the 10 second FT violation.

I've said it before, but I generally look for one of two criteria before calling these violations. Advantage, or egregious.

Originally Posted by Duffman

Show me where in the rule book it prohibits a defensive player from screaming or counting to five loudly and quickly in the face of a player attempting to inbound the ball. Then show me an official who wouldn’t put a stop to that despite not having the justification to do so (spare me the unsportsmanlike T as that only applies to baiting and taunting).

No, it does not only apply to baiting and taunting. Baiting and taunting is only one of nine articles in 10-3-6 (Commit an unsporting foul....) And even if it did, you could consider this act (screaming in the face of an opponent) taunting or baiting. But the counting is easily included in 10-3-6a, "disrespectfully addressing an official." If the yelling isn't directed at the official, then it's certainly baiting or taunting the opponent.

Aside from that, using the "but not limited to" portion of the rule applies to unsporting technical fouls, not violations. Our point is that you are really stretching the violation rule to apply it to the Free Throw Lane hand jive.

Originally Posted by Duffman

My response that it was a violation of the "I told you to knock that off" rule was not arrogant, or emotional at all reallly. It was merely a factual answer to a direct question.

If you're going to use that rule, you only have the option of a technical foul.

Originally Posted by Duffman

Regardless I don’t think there is much I can accomplish by hanging out here. The little new information I’ve learned isn’t worth the time it takes to sort through the dozen or so daily posts promising free movie downloads, and most of the conversations here turn into a bunch of old ladies arguing about who cheated in bridge last Thursday.

Go or stay, that's up to you. I had initially thought to step in for your defense before you made the crack about blowing through high school ball and being able to count on your partners to help you through your lack of rules knowledge. Until this thread, you had expressed a willingness to learn the rules, particularly the technical foul rules for which you displayed a lack of awareness.

Here, however, you inexplicably dug in your heels. When challenged by the actual rule, your response is to deny arrogance and accuse the guys who know the rule of having some sort of pi$$ing contest. If that's your intent, you won't be missed.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the deal: A/D is, essentially, written into the rules for fouls in the incidental contact rule. It is not written into the rules for violations. It is, however, considered on some violations, by practice. 3 seconds, as you note, is done this way. Palming is another one that is done that way, although not to the same degree, as is the 10 second FT violation.

I've said it before, but I generally look for one of two criteria before calling these violations. Advantage, or egregious.

No, it does not only apply to baiting and taunting. Baiting and taunting is only one of nine articles in 10-3-6 (Commit an unsporting foul....) And even if it did, you could consider this act (screaming in the face of an opponent) taunting or baiting. But the counting is easily included in 10-3-6a, "disrespectfully addressing an official." If the yelling isn't directed at the official, then it's certainly baiting or taunting the opponent.

Aside from that, using the "but not limited to" portion of the rule applies to unsporting technical fouls, not violations. Our point is that you are really stretching the violation rule to apply it to the Free Throw Lane hand jive.

If you're going to use that rule, you only have the option of a technical foul.

Go or stay, that's up to you. I had initially thought to step in for your defense before you made the crack about blowing through high school ball and being able to count on your partners to help you through your lack of rules knowledge. Until this thread, you had expressed a willingness to learn the rules, particularly the technical foul rules for which you displayed a lack of awareness.

Here, however, you inexplicably dug in your heels. When challenged by the actual rule, your response is to deny arrogance and accuse the guys who know the rule of having some sort of pi$$ing contest. If that's your intent, you won't be missed.

+1 - from beginning to end.

(And I agree with the earlier statement that "I'm everything that's right about the future of officiating" being just about the most arrogant thing I've read in months.)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Regardless I don’t think there is much I can accomplish by hanging out here. .

I'm going to disagree with some of you other guys and say that THIS is the most arrogant thing I have read on this forum in a long time. This person has been a member of the forum for roughly 6 weeks but now is leaving because he/she can't fix all of us or mold all of us into the perfection that he/she exemplifies.

"Can't accomplish much"??? Most of us come here to learn from each other...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Duffman

...
As for me I’ll be fine. I’ve gone from working youth and JV games only 3 years ago to working a full season of varsity including 4 tournament games (2 boys and 2 girls) this year. I’ve got a handful of JV college dates on my schedule for next year, as well as 2 dates from a local juco. I’ve been invited to attend two college officiating camps by the respective guy’s that run them and assign officials for the local D2 and NAIA conferences in my general area. That tells me I must be doing something right, so I’ll just keep on keeping on.

Or it just means you have money in your checking account.

I know guys who got picked up in NCAA D3 conferences after just 1 year of officiating.

If you can't handle internet discussions without being a drama queen good luck handling coaches who know the rules and are jumping in your a$$ before one of your partners runs over to be your support system.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Or it just means you have money in your checking account.

I know guys who got picked up in NCAA D3 conferences after just 1 year of officiating.

If you can't handle internet discussions without being a drama queen good luck handling coaches who know the rules and are jumping in your a$$ before one of your partners runs over to be your support system.

How long before a partner at that level throws him under the bus with the assigner for getting the crew into a tight spot by making stuff up?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How long before a partner at that level throws him under the bus with the assigner for getting the crew into a tight spot by making stuff up?

At that level the assignor gets a phone call from the HC and/or neutral observor while the crew is still showering. And don't let the supervisor be watching the game over the internet.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

At that level the assignor gets a phone call from the HC and/or neutral observor while the crew is still showering. And don't let the supervisor be watching the game over the internet.

You got that right. One of my D-3 assignors says if there's trouble the crew may not even make it to the locker room before there's a phone call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You got that right. One of my D-3 assignors says if there's trouble the crew may not even make it to the locker room before there's a phone call.

And God forbid he need rules help during the tryout camps.