Are every player entitled to a vertical position on the court?

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Or does a defensive player must be in a vertical position?

I want to know why an offensive post player holding the ball is allowed to straighten his body and in the process create space by pushing the defensive player with his back?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

I want to know why an offensive post player holding the ball is allowed to straighten his body and in the process create space by pushing the defensive player with his back?

If the defender is vertical, the offensive player is not allowed to push/displace him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

Or does a defensive player must be in a vertical position?

I want to know why an offensive post player holding the ball is allowed to straighten his body and in the process create space by pushing the defensive player with his back?

Yes if they get their legally first.

I have no idea, you probably need to talk to the parties involved. None of us can answer a particular play honestly that we did not see. As this might be your interpretation of the events and not the interpretation of those calling the game.

Peace

[Adam]

If an offensive player gets vertical and in the process moves a defender who is hovering over his vertical space, the defender is responsible for the contact. Same reason a defender can't stick his knee out or bend his body sideways.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes if they get their legally first.

I have no idea, you probably need to talk to the parties involved. None of us can answer a particular play honestly that we did not see. As this might be your interpretation of the events and not the interpretation of those calling the game.

Peace

Do you know when an offensive player is posting up a defender, and the defender is leaning over the offensive player's back, and then the offensive player erect his body to create space?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

Do you know when an offensive player is posting up a defender, and the defender is leaning over the offensive player's back, and then the offensive player erect his body to create space?

Do you have video tape? Either your description is not clear to me or I would like to see what happened first. Because not being vertical only matters when contact takes place with the non-vertical parts of your body. It sounds to me like the issue is what happened first.

Peace

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you have video tape? Either your description is not clear to me or I would like to see what happened first. Because not being vertical only matters when contact takes place with the non-vertical parts of your body. It sounds to me like the issue is what happened first.

Peace

I don't have a tape. Just pretend that the offensive post player is bent over and that the defender has his body hovering over the offensive player's bent body. (This is the kind of situation that happens when a small offensive post player accidentally drops the ball, bends over, and then rises up and makes contact with the defender).

Here is a rule from FIBA:

Post play

The principle of verticality (cylinder principle) applies also to post play.

The offensive player in the post position and the defensive player guarding him must respect each other's rights to a vertical position (cylinder).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

I don't have a tape. Just pretend that the offensive post player is bent over and that the defender has his body hovering over the offensive player's bent body. (This is the kind of situation that happens when a small offensive post player accidentally drops the ball, bends over, and then rises up and makes contact with the defender).

Here is a rule from FIBA:

Post play

The principle of verticality (cylinder principle) applies also to post play.

The offensive player in the post position and the defensive player guarding him must respect each other's rights to a vertical position (cylinder).

I honestly could give a damn what the FIBA rule is as I will not see that rules set anytime soon.

And in your situation the defender would be responsible for any contact if it took place and the contact took place with the arms, body or head. But without seeing the play, I cannot tell you why anything was called or not and you seemed to have already come to a conclusion. That is why video tape would be helpful as these plays you described I have seen were not illegal based on the actions that took place. If the defender is hovering over an offensive player, the contact could be legal or incidental.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

Do you know when an offensive player is posting up a defender, and the defender is leaning over the offensive player's back, and then the offensive player erect his body to create space?

If the defender is leaning over the offensive player's back, then he is violating the offensive player's vertical space. The offensive player has the right to erect his body. That's what verticality is.

[APG]

A defender is not allowed to be in an offensive player's vertical airspace. If there's contact that's more than incidental, even if initiated by the offensive player, the foul is on defensive player (assuming the offensive player doesn't do anything illegal).

A situation where you could see this play out is with a smaller player posting a bigger player, with the bigger player bring his arms down and the offensive player jumping straight up.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I honestly could give a damn what the FIBA rule is as I will not see that rules set anytime soon.

And in your situation the defender would be responsible for any contact if it took place and the contact took place with the arms, body or head. But without seeing the play, I cannot tell you why anything was called or not and you seemed to have already come to a conclusion. That is why video tape would be helpful as these plays you described I have seen were not illegal based on the actions that took place. If the defender is hovering over an offensive player, the contact could be legal or incidental.

Peace

Rut:

I am not sure I understand what MWC is trying to ask, but the FIBA rule regarding Principle of Verticality is the same as NFHS and NCAA. I like the FIBA's Cylinder of Verticality (CV) because it gives it a three-dimensional description to the Principle of Verticality (PV).

I find that many time officials think of only of the player's PV as a two-dimensional plane that corresponds to the front of his body as he stands straight up. But CV reminds us that a player is acutally a three-dimensional body and that when a player is bending over he still has vertically rights to the side of him and behind him.

MTD, Sr.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the defender is leaning over the offensive player's back, then he is violating the offensive player's vertical space. The offensive player has the right to erect his body. That's what verticality is.

That's what I wanted to know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I find that many time officials think of only of the player's PV as a two-dimensional plane that corresponds to the front of his body as he stands straight up. But CV reminds us that a player is acutally a three-dimensional body and that when a player is bending over he still has vertically rights to the side of him and behind him.

MTD, Sr.

That might be the case, but I have never looked at it that way. Verticality does not change based on what part of the body you are located next to. But then again players have a right to not be vertical until their is contact of some kind. Then the non-vertical player is likely responsible for the contact.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

That's what I wanted to know.

You took a long time and some mis-used verbs to get there.

But you already knew a defender had to be vertical and that the offensive player is entitled to his own vertical cylinder.

What's really driving this question? What happened in the Heat game?

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You took a long time and some mis-used verbs to get there.

But you already knew a defender had to be vertical and that the offensive player is entitled to his own vertical cylinder.

What's really driving this question? What happened in the Heat game?

I already knew a defender had to be vertical and that the offensive player is entitled to his own vertical space, but I couldn't find anything in the NF rules book that said so.

Wade fouled out, Kobe was Kobe and the Heat played sloppy.