Time Out ?

[paulsonj72]

I am reading the Seth Davis book about the 1979 Michigan St/Indiana St NCAA title game and in the book he goes into detail about the 2 teams seasons. Anyway in the Michigan St loss to Michigan that year Michigan made a free throw with no time left on the clock and before the free throws Jud Heathcote tried to call a time out but was told he could not do so because the clock showed 0:00. Was that a correct reading of the rule at that time? And what is the rule in that instance now?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by paulsonj72

I am reading the Seth Davis book about the 1979 Michigan St/Indiana St NCAA title game and in the book he goes into detail about the 2 teams seasons. Anyway in the Michigan St loss to Michigan that year Michigan made a free throw with no ti e left on the clock and before the free throws NJud Heathcote tried to call a time out but was told he could not do so because the clock showed 0:00. Was that a correct reading of the rule at that time? And what is the rule in that instance now?

I'm assuming the situation described in the book was FTs to determine the outcome of the game? If that's the case, both NFHS and NCAA would allow the time out request now (if the team still had any remaining at the end of regulation).

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'm assuming the situation described in the book was FTs to determine the outcome of the game? If that's the case, both NFHS and NCAA would allow the time out request now (if the team still had any remaining at the end of regulation).

However either team cannot request successive timeouts at the end of the 4th quarter or OT. When I'm back from this swim meet I'll get the rule.

[Rob1968]

Take a look at 4-43-2 and 5-12-3.

[paulsonj72]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'm assuming the situation described in the book was FTs to determine the outcome of the game? If that's the case, both NFHS and NCAA would allow the time out request now (if the team still had any remaining at the end of regulation).

Yep. Michigan at the line to win. Didn't say if they were down 1 or tied.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

However either team cannot request successive timeouts at the end of the 4th quarter or OT. When I'm back from this swim meet I'll get the rule.

For NFHS, it's more than that. Once one of the teams has used a time-out, neither that same team nor the opposing team may be granted another time-out until the clock runs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

However either team cannot request successive timeouts at the end of the 4th quarter or OT. When I'm back from this swim meet I'll get the rule.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For NFHS, it's more than that. Once one of the teams has used a time-out, neither that same team nor the opposing team may be granted another time-out until the clock runs.

Now, is that really true? Does the clock have to run before than can get another timeout?

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For NFHS, it's more than that. Once one of the teams has used a time-out, neither that same team nor the opposing team may be granted another time-out until the clock runs.

Right, neither team may be granted a time out

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now, is that really true? Does the clock have to run before than can get another timeout?

Only after the end of the forth quarter or an OT period successive timeouts cannot be granted.
5-11-7: Successive time-outs, as in 4-43-2, shall not be granted after the expiration of playing time for the forth quarter or any extra period. In all other instances, they shall be administered in order which they were requested.

The case plays for 5-11-7 clear the idea of one team calling a time-out after the other since 4-43-2 does not clearly define it.

[berserkBBK]

I'm sorry my replies are for NFHS.
NCAA is 5-13-b

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

Only after the end of the forth quarter or an OT period successive timeouts cannot be granted.
5-11-7: Successive time-outs, as in 4-43-2, shall not be granted after the expiration of playing time for the forth quarter or any extra period. In all other instances, they shall be administered in order which they were requested.

The case plays for 5-11-7 clear the idea of one team calling a time-out after the other since 4-43-2 does not clearly define it.

My question is about when they may actually call another timeout after the first one has been called. It is it really only possible after the clock has subsequently started, or is it only after the ball has become live to start the (next) OT period? Those two events may not be at the same time.

And FYI, it is not related to the "end of the forth quarter or an OT"....but after time has expired in such a situation but the quarter has not yet ended due to pending FTs.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My question is about when they may actually call another timeout after the first one has been called. It is it really only possible after the clock has subsequently started, or is it only after the ball has become live to start the (next) OT period? Those two events may not be at the same time.

And FYI, it is not related to the "end of the forth quarter or an OT"....but after time has expired in such a situation but the quarter has not yet ended due to pending FTs.

Until the clock has run to begin the extra period. It is better cleared in the case book plays, but I'm not going to type them in this late.

The rule states "after the expiration of playing time in the fourth quarter or any extra period". Unless I am thinking incorrectly, but wouldn't the only time that the fourth quarter is ended without being over and the overtime period not yet begun is if we are shooting free throws? And of course if we are not yet off the playing court after the end of the fourth in a decided game, but then I'm not granting any time-outs to either team.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

However either team cannot request successive timeouts at the end of the 4th quarter or OT. When I'm back from this swim meet I'll get the rule.

I purposely didn't go into the rest of the possible scenarios since I figured all the posts which followed about successive TOs and calling a TO heading into OT were going to come anyway

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

Until the clock has run to begin the extra period. It is better cleared in the case book plays, but I'm not going to type them in this late.

The rule states "after the expiration of playing time in the fourth quarter or any extra period". Unless I am thinking incorrectly, but wouldn't the only time that the fourth quarter is ended without being over and the overtime period not yet begun is if we are shooting free throws? And of course if we are not yet off the playing court after the end of the fourth in a decided game, but then I'm not granting any time-outs to either team.

I tried to provide a hint...but it was missed.

The rules on when a timeout can be taken don't say anything about the clock starting for the extra period. The next timeout can be called once the ball is live for the extra period. That might occur before the the clock starts for the extra period.

There are several, albeit unlikely, ways you could have a live ball before the clock starts....

• a common foul on the jump before the ball is touched (but after the ball is tossed)
• a jump ball violation before the ball is touched
• a technical foul after the 4th quarter has ended in a tie where you start the OT with FTs for the T.

All of these, create an opportunity for a timeout that is no longer in the window restricted by the successive timeout rule but is before the clock starts again.

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I tried to provide a hint...but it was missed.

The rules on when a timeout can be taken don't say anything about the clock starting for the extra period. The next timeout can be called once the ball is live for the extra period. That might occur before the the clock starts for the extra period.

There are several, albeit unlikely, ways you could have a live ball before the clock starts....

• a common foul on the jump before the ball is touched (but after the ball is tossed)
• a jump ball violation before the ball is touched
• a technical foul after the 4th quarter has ended in a tie where you start the OT with FTs for the T.

All of these, create an opportunity for a timeout that is no longer in the window restricted by the successive timeout rule but is before the clock starts again.

Ahhh, I'm still new to the forum and can't be held responsible for knowing everyone's sneaky ways of bringing up further ideas to the rule. Plus it was late so I didn't have my thinking cap on.

With that said, yes those are instances that would make a second TO non successive. Not something I have previously thought, but if it happened I hope I would recognize it on the floor. Even though this is probably a less then once in a career situation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by berserkBBK

Ahhh, I'm still new to the forum and can't be held responsible for knowing everyone's sneaky ways of bringing up further ideas to the rule. Plus it was late so I didn't have my thinking cap on.

With that said, yes those are instances that would make a second TO non successive. Not something I have previously thought, but if it happened I hope I would recognize it on the floor. Even though this is probably a less then once in a career situation.

The T is only one that that has some reasonable chance of happening.....but the underlying point, one that may be more relevant at other times than in this particular scenario, is that a quarter/OT starts when the ball becomes live, not when the clock starts.