Down goes player.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Rich, I'm not saying we should go onto the court worrying about what others think. There's no way we can officiate effectively that way. That being said I was reminded early on that we never know who's watching us.

At any rate, my point was on par with what JugglingRef said...just call what's there. Sometimes stuff happens.

That is an absolute true statement. You do never know who is around. But the reality is there is no rule that covers this at all. I asked and I did not get a single rule that says what you do if an official interfere with the players. This was not an out of bounds situation where the player was not obstructed. And if the throw was not on the way when the kid fell I might have done something totally different. Again this has never happened to me in all the games I have worked during the regular season and in the off season. And at the point I am at in my career, I doubt there would have been too many people at this game where I would have had to worry about what they thought. And if they did not like it, they would tell me and I would listen. But it is overplayed to suggest that I did not follow a rule when this is not covered specifically and what 2-3 is for in the first place. I would have been OK with going with an out of bounds call completely in a close game or a game that had any question of the outcome. But this team was not going to beat this ranked team with only a couple of minutes left to go and it would not have mattered. We all laughed about it in the locker room and one of my partners was a State Final did not agree with the call, but he felt the way I handled it was fine. And there was a crew that followed us and that was some ribbing about the situation from them as well.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is an absolute true statement. You do never know who is around. But the reality is there is no rule that covers this at all. I asked and I did not get a single rule that says what you do if an official interfere with the players. This was not an out of bounds situation where the player was not obstructed. And if the throw was not on the way when the kid fell I might have done something totally different. Again this has never happened to me in all the games I have worked during the regular season and in the off season. And at the point I am at in my career, I doubt there would have been too many people at this game where I would have had to worry about what they thought. And if they did not like it, they would tell me and I would listen. But it is overplayed to suggest that I did not follow a rule when this is not covered specifically and what 2-3 is for in the first place. I would have been OK with going with an out of bounds call completely in a close game or a game that had any question of the outcome. But this team was not going to beat this ranked team with only a couple of minutes left to go and it would not have mattered. We all laughed about it in the locker room and one of my partners was a State Final did not agree with the call, but he felt the way I handled it was fine. And there was a crew that followed us and that was some ribbing about the situation from them as well.

Peace

I went back and looked at the original post and, in my opinion, what you describe isn't an official interfering with a player. You say you were in transition, the player went wide, cut back into the court and ran into you. From that description it sounds as though the player was at fault. But anyway...

You're right: there's nothing in the rules covering this situation. NFHS 4-4-4 only deals with the ball hitting the official and 2-3 gives us the right to handle whatever isn't specifically covered in the rules. However, I'm thinking the original post was made because there was some trepidation regarding the way the situation was dealt with. Even in your latest post you say one of your partners thought you handled it "fine" but didn't agree with the call and I'm going to make a guess why: what if the same situation happened with one of your partners a minute or two later for the other team? What were they supposed to do?

From what I can tell we've both been in this crazy vocation for a while and have been in/watched a lot of games. I've seen the situation you've described more than a few times at every level - heck, I was almost in it Wednesday night - and I can't say I remember the team whose player hit the deck as a pass went OOB getting the ball back, regardless of the score. Sure, 2-3 gives us latitude but I'm thinking we should apply it consistently. What if, when the situation happened, it was a 20-point game but the underdog team all of a sudden hits a bunch of threes to make it close...and the same thing happens? To me, that's where the problems I mentioned earlier pop up.

I'm sure I would've laughed about it too since I run about a 4.4 in the 10-yard dash and I had a partner almost double over as a kid nearly steamrolled me earlier this season but if the player had run into me and had a pass go over his head I would've just apologized to him and the coach.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I went back and looked at the original post and, in my opinion, what you describe isn't an official interfering with a player. You say you were in transition, the player went wide, cut back into the court and ran into you. From that description it sounds as though the player was at fault. But anyway...

Well who was at fault could be debatable. I feel I could have avoided him and misjudged his movement. I clearly was in his way for whatever reason and he was not able to continue with a play made for him. I think who is at fault is ultimately irrelevant. But since I personally felt responsible on some level, I made a decision based on that.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You're right: there's nothing in the rules covering this situation. NFHS 4-4-4 only deals with the ball hitting the official and 2-3 gives us the right to handle whatever isn't specifically covered in the rules. However, I'm thinking the original post was made because there was some trepidation regarding the way the situation was dealt with. Even in your latest post you say one of your partners thought you handled it "fine" but didn't agree with the call and I'm going to make a guess why: what if the same situation happened with one of your partners a minute or two later for the other team? What were they supposed to do?

I post questions like this often not for advice, but to see if others would handle a situation similar or different and why. I was fine with what I did, but there was a debate on some level. Now when I say debate, it was all in fun and the comments were more about, "They bought it." And we did debate if there was a rule that applied. I asked because I could not find a rule and did not think I was totally off base to do what I did. Honestly I do not know what the others would have done if it happened to them and I would have not cared. I made a personal decision at the time based on the circumstances I was involved in. Again, this has never happened to me and I cannot think of a time where I have ever seen it happen to someone else where a player fell under the circumstances I was involved in.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

From what I can tell we've both been in this crazy vocation for a while and have been in/watched a lot of games. I've seen the situation you've described more than a few times at every level - heck, I was almost in it Wednesday night - and I can't say I remember the team whose player hit the deck as a pass went OOB getting the ball back, regardless of the score. Sure, 2-3 gives us latitude but I'm thinking we should apply it consistently. What if, when the situation happened, it was a 20-point game but the underdog team all of a sudden hits a bunch of threes to make it close...and the same thing happens? To me, that's where the problems I mentioned earlier pop up.

I think being a good official is to think of the bigger picture. Just like we might not T something in a close game that we would in a different part of the game is not unusual. That is ultimately why we get paid to do what we do as officials. We have to make decisions that are appropriate for the game. I would think I would do the exact same thing if this was a one point game. It clearly was not and it was clear by all involved that this team could not get out of their own way (pun intended). And I do feel this is an appropriate application of 2-3 because there appears to be no ruling or interpretation to say what to do. Not sure how you can be consistent about something that is not mentioned or covered at all. Maybe there should be an interpretation, but until then I would do the same thing again.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'm sure I would've laughed about it too since I run about a 4.4 in the 10-yard dash and I had a partner almost double over as a kid nearly steamrolled me earlier this season but if the player had run into me and had a pass go over his head I would've just apologized to him and the coach.

Again it was a funny event and even was called my "passing interference" call. I got a kick out of it and so did everyone else that was the official. If I felt for a minute that I was not partially involved then I would have let it ride. The only reason I did this was the pass was on the way when he went down. If the pass was errant or bad in any way I would have just let it go and rule the out of bounds. But I made a split decision and have to live with it. I will do my best not to have this happen again for sure and I have had some close calls in some cases before, but I did what I felt was right for the game at the time. I was expecting disagreement with that call and if I did not welcome it I would have never posted the situation here.

Peace

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I run about a 4.4 in the 10-yard dash and I had a partner almost double over as a kid nearly steamrolled me earlier this season but if the player had run into me and had a pass go over his head I would've just apologized to him and the coach.

Man you sure are fast with that speed.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It has never happened to me in my 16 years of working games at any level or any type of game. And as I stated I was actually the new lead not the new trail.

Peace

Knowing you and where you are in your career, it's no biggy given the score. If it happened to be me in a ccl game same score situation , I could be called in on the carpet(probably not though).

For that reason, I would have just gone OOB, as we are part of the court.

That said, at my age it would have been me down or in the second row.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Knowing you and where you are in your career, it's no biggy given the score. If it happened to be me in a ccl game same score situation , I could be called in on the carpet(probably not though).

For that reason, I would have just gone OOB, as we are part of the court.

That said, at my age it would have been me down or in the second row.

As a clinician and a board member, if I was watching your game and this happened to you, I would only ask you what happen and how you fell? I seriously doubt I would have been complaining about this either way unless I had a rule that was clearly not applied. I could not think of one so I did what I did. And I have still yet to get one that has convinced me otherwise in this discussion.

I probably would give you more crap of falling or making a player fall (as long as everyone was OK of course).

Peace