Incorrect travel

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

In situation #1, I'm thinking of giving a couple of "tweet tweets" and a verbal, held ball came first partner. So I'm basically just taking the play.

Actually, when he popped, I & everybody else in the building just knew we'd see 2 thumbs up. When I saw the travel signal, coming over the top would not be the proper way. So I gave him the info & he corrected in less than 10 seconds. Same official as your "alley oop 3 point shot" btw!!

In situation #3, I don't mind offering information if you have it. Ultimately, the T has the responsibility to correct it, so if you say "there was clearly a hand on the ball that caused the travel" and the T says "I don't agree". But the point would be I'm handling this in a brief, concise conference if I felt I had a great look. But very seldom have I ever had a great look from the L at a trap that took place at the 28' line.

So from prior experience of not having had great looks at those plays, I'm probably leaving #3 alone.[/QUOTE]

Actually, due to the pushback in unison from an entire section on this play where he could not see the ball & the feet (which btw we shouldn't be calling travels unless you can see both of those things!) he had the look of relief on his face as I approached & again, less than 10 seconds WE got a BIG play right in a BIG game.

If any partner(s) dont agree, then it is what it is. As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didnt you help your team?"
"Dont expect a Sunday night email!"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tref

Actually, due to the pushback in unison from an entire section on this play

Please tell us why this matters?

where he could not see the ball & the feet (which btw we shouldn't be calling travels unless you can see both of those things!)

Agreed.

he had the look of relief on his face as I approached & again, less than 10 seconds WE got a BIG play right in a BIG game.

The more you talk the more I wonder why this guy was on the court.

As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didn't you help your team?"

Sir, your motivation is skewed. (And no supervisor I know would blast an official for not fishing in his partner's pond).

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, in #1 if you are the T and have the ball going to the hole you should have been on top of the play and called a held ball before the L's whistle.)

Everbody doesnt have a patient whistle...

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For #2 you still haven't explained where you were and where the calling official was. But it's possible it was just poor judgment by the calling official or it's possible there was a travel and you misread the play.)

He was L & I was T... didnt offer any help because they were losing anyway & no pushback from the coach. And no, the film says I got it right

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For #3, don't remember seeing a clear description until after I asked, my bad if you were clear before my post. Don't remember anybody saying to be 94' away. I know I always help on the press. As described you should have been stronger in officiating your secondary since you recognized the C was out of position and you should have came in strong with a held ball call before the C had a whistle on the play.

In fact I still don't see a clear description of #3 since you originally say you were L and T missed the call then later say you were across the court and had a clear view.

I think popping 1st in someone elses primary is a lack of trust. I trust you to get it right, until you dont, then help is offered.

3 Bs is the principle for calling outside of my primary:
- Be late (give them an opportunity)
- Be needed (no borderline violations)
- Be right (Im always trying to beat the film)

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please tell us why this matters?)

Grandma always said EVERYbody aint crazy. You've been around long enough to tell difference between
a. the boo of disgruntled fans because you called it on their team
b. everyone reacts negatively in unison on a kicked play.

well, at least I hope you can tell the difference!

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Agreed. The more you talk the more I wonder why this guy was on the court.)

You gotta really suck to not get a post season game in week 1 around here.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sir, your motivation is skewed. (And no supervisor I know would blast an official for not fishing in his partner's pond).

I know a few, but I better not mention any names

Live & die, ECA, ponds, are of the past.
Get the damn play right is where todays officiating is headed.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...
I think popping 1st in someone elses primary is a lack of trust. I trust you to get it right, until you dont, then help is offered.

3 Bs is the principle for calling outside of my primary:
- Be late (give them an opportunity)
- Be needed (no borderline violations)
- Be right (Im always trying to beat the film)



..

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game? Patient whistle has nothing to do with play #1. Lead saw a player go up with ball and land with the ball. Your overly patient whistle made him look bad.

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game?

L lay off above the rim play & T be patient on your whistle. I held up my end, he didnt...
On blocked shots, I prefer to give myself a chance to see it clearly before whistling it.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

When calling out of my primary I follow the 3 Bs. Be late being #1, gotta give the covering official an opportunity to make the call. If you pop outside your primary immediately, thats a sign of not trusting your partner in my opinion.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L lay off above the rim play & T be patient on your whistle. i held up my end, he didnt...



When calling out of my primary I follow the 3 Bs. Be late being #1, gotta give the covering official an opportunity to make the call. Thats a sign of not trusting your partner in my opinion.

I see you ignoring my specific questions and just repeating the mantras.

A1 leaves the floor with ball, A1 returns to floor with ball. How long is Lead supposed to wait to see if his partner has a whistle before he whistles A1 for travelling?

Play #3. B1 causes held ball and it is obvious that responsible official cannot not see the held ball. If you're right with your call who is going to complain that you weren't late enough? You're explanation to the supervisor/observor that you saw your partner was straight-lined should suffice as a reason to come in with a whistle. You're looking over there for a reason, right, to help your partner since nothing is going on in your primary.

Patient late whistles don't apply to every single call. It's great when a player goes to the hole, gets smack on the elbow, the primary official doesn't get it. But what does a late whistle serve on a clear held ball?

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I see you ignoring my specific questions and just repeating the mantras.

A1 leaves the floor with ball, A1 returns to floor with ball. How long is Lead supposed to wait to see if his partner has a whistle before he whistles A1 for travelling?

Play #3. B1 causes held ball and it is obvious that responsible official cannot not see the held ball. If you're right with your call who is going to complain that you weren't late enough? You're explanation to the supervisor/observor that you saw your partner was straight-lined should suffice as a reason to come in with a whistle. You're looking over there for a reason, right, to help your partner since nothing is going on in your primary.

Patient late whistles don't apply to every single call. It's great when a player goes to the hole, gets smack on the elbow, the primary official doesn't get it. But what does a late whistle serve on a clear held ball?

Negative sir.
A1 left the floor with the ball, it got capped up top for a second & then came a loose, A1 regained control of the ball then landed. I was passing on a held ball since it was so brief & eventually came a loose anyway. Thought it was a good play on, definitely not a travel by rule.
To answer your question he should've seen the ball come loose & known it was not a travel.

In #3 I was waiting for him to move to improve & I simply allowed him to referee his play.
Honestly I thought this was a great call for the C but since he's of the old school he probably was letting the T live & die with his incorrect call.
Again, I trust my partners until they give me reason not to...
I'm sure I could've found an off ball competitive matchup but since the T left 3 players in the b/c AGAIN, I just happened to catch the held ball as I was watching them.
Hope this answers your questions!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

Grandma always said EVERYbody aint crazy.

So...you are going to use Grandma's advice when the crowd boos and moans, but not when a group of officials are on one accord? Interesting.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Maybe the T went against pre-game and didn't make the held ball call that should have been made so the L judges that A1 voluntarily let the ball drop after being capped?

You said B1 capped the ball. You say the play was up high (above the rim plays). What were you waiting on to determine whether or not is was a held ball?

+1

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game? Patient whistle has nothing to do with play #1. Lead saw a player go up with ball and land with the ball. Your overly patient whistle made him look bad.

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

+1...again

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel. Instead of the T position adjusting by stepping up & onto the court he got stuck in the mud & called a travel.

Perhaps we need to discuss the held ball rule. From what I just read, this is a good defensive play and a travel is the correct call. Merely placing a hand on the ball when the player isn't airborne does NOT equate to a held ball BY RULE.

Originally Posted by tref

Tea would definitely had to have been served up if WE didnt get this play right. And I hate whacking on top of incorrect calls!!!

Do whats right for the game, dont let positioning deter you from offering assistance on an OBVIOUS incorrect call.

In your opinion a certain decision was correct or incorrect. I would disagree.

Originally Posted by tref

I can see waiting to discuss judgment on a ticky tack foul call because there is nothing we can do at the point. But we can fix incorrect violation rulings.

So you are okay erasing a violation, but not a foul? Why? What makes you believe that one can be overturned, but the other can't? What if your partner had called a foul in situation 3, when you could clearly see that the defender's hand was on the ball? Are you going to go offer information to him and tell him that it wasn't a foul?

Originally Posted by tref

I'm glad the committee that passes us through from week 1 to week 2 dont have the same old school mindset as some Forum members. I was told those were good help situations from the guys that gave me games this week.
....
If any partner(s) dont agree, then it is what it is. As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didnt you help your team?"
"Dont expect a Sunday night email!"

It seems that you should do what you need to in order to get the assignments that you desire. That is between you and those who assign those contests. For your sake, I hope that they share your judgment and opinions on rules and mechanics. I know several people who don't.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tref

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Perhaps we need to discuss the held ball rule. From what I just read, this is a good defensive play and a travel is the correct call. Merely placing a hand on the ball when the player isn't airborne does NOT equate to a held ball BY RULE.

I disagree. If the pull is sufficient to move the opponent, that is enough for a held ball.