NCAA OOB Case Play?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Since the throw in never legally ended the ball would go back to the original designated spot to Team B.

Interesting though, in the Maryland-Clemson game B1 touched it not A1 regardless, the designated spot would remain as at the start of the play.

I couldn't find it in the case book, however I made some phone calls and that's what I came up with.

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

[SoInZebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Cameron- My original thought was to agree with you, however a variation of this play happened on 2/7 at the end of the Maryland/Clemson game. With 1.7 seconds left A1 had a designated spot throw in on the endline in his backcourt. A1 makes a long pass and the first person to touch the ball was B1 who was in the air but left the playing court with one foot on a boundary line in Team A's frontcourt. The crew gave the ball back to A at the original designated spot with no time off the clock. I texted the national coordinator and he agreed with the crew's administration:

Ball was never legally inbounded. Same as opponent or teammate catching throw in OOB.

This ruling is contradictory to A.R. 182:

After a goal by Team B, Team A has the ball for a throw-in from the end of the playing court at which the goal was made and attempts to pass the ball inbounds.

(1) B1 kicks the ball along the sideline; or

(2) B1 kicks the ball along the end line from where the throw-in was attempted.

RULING: (1) The kick is a floor violation and the ball shall be awarded to Team A at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.
(Rule 9-6 and 7-5-1)

(2) Kicking the ball is a floor violation. Consequently, Team A shall retain the privilege to the throw-in from anywhere along the end line.

In (1) and (2), the throw-in was not legally completed since the kick is not a legal touch. As a result, neither the game clock nor the shot clock shall be started because of the violation.

(Rule 7-6-2, 7-5-6.a.4 and 9-6)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't be...and I'll tell you why....

Throwin restrictions are generally placed on the thrower and the thrower is who violates if they do not meet the requirements of the throwin. If the thrower violates, the defensive team would get the ball. What if the player who was OOB was the defensive team? Does that mean the thrower violated? No. Would you give them the ball? No. You'd give it back to team A. So, what is the violation? Touching the ball while OOB. Where was the violation? Where the ball was touched.

Look at Rule 7, Section 6, Art. 2....where it says the throwin ends when a player OOB touches the ball....sounds like it legally ends.

Next look at Rule 9, Section 5, Art 1 where it says...

"The thrower-in shall not: Fail to pass the ball directly into the playing court so that after it crosses the boundary line, it touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds "

It seems to me that the NCAA doesn't define playing court the same way as the NFHS. If they did, this rule wouldn't make any sense since it would be impossible for a player to touch the ball and cause it to be OOB if they were only inbounds.

So, if a player, who touches the ball causes the ball to be OOB, the throwin both ends and was legally executed by the thrower.

The violation is a basic OOB violation....spot of the violation.

Actually A.R. 182 states a floor-violation by an opponent does not cause the throw-in to end but ensuing throw-in is from a spot nearest to the violation.

Rule 9-15 addresses where throw-ins will occur when penalizing violations 9-3 through 9-14:

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

The play from the OP falls under 9-4-1 and 9-5-2b so should be administered as stated in 9-15-1 and A. R. 182.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Actually A.R. 182 states a floor-violation by an opponent does not cause the throw-in to end but ensuing throw-in is from a spot nearest to the violation.

Rule 9-15 addresses where throw-ins will occur when penalizing violations 9-3 through 9-14:

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. The ball shall be awarded to a nearby opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

The play from the OP falls under 9-4-1 and 9-5-2b so should be administered as stated in 9-15-1 and A. R. 182.

Good additional detail.....thx for the backup....but 7-6-2 does clearly say the throwin ends when it touches an OOB player. Other types of floor violations (kicking, for example) do not cause the throwin to end...only OOB violations. The difference is that a kick is not a legal touch in any location where catching the ball is legal, but the location happens to be illegal.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good additional detail.....thx for the backup....but 7-6-2 does clearly say the throwin ends when it touches an OOB player. Other types of floor violations (kicking, for example) do not cause the throwin to end...only OOB violations. The difference is that a kick is not a legal touch in any location where catching the ball is legal, but the location happens to be illegal.

OK, I see what you are saying now and agree.

[Scrapper1]

Here's the official word from Mr. Hyland:

Sorry for the late response, but your rules question presented several interesting issues, and I needed to research the issues to assure myself that there had not been any prior interpretations given by Ed Billick.

You have identified many of the rules which relate to your play situation, but none of them, individually or collectively, provides a definitive answer to your question. Accordingly, the following play situation and interpretation should clarify the issues in question and will be presented to the rules committee this May for final approval before being published in the Case Book:

Play Situation:
With 2 seconds remaining in the game and Team A behind by 2 points, Team A has the ball for a throw-in on the endline after Team B has scored. A-1, the thrower-in, passes the ball down court where it is first touched by B-1 who is standing with one or more feet out of bounds.

Ruling- Since the ball has never been touched by a player inbounds nor met any of the other conditions of Rule 4-70.4, the throw-in has never ended. Team B’s out of bounds violation results in a new throw-in by Team A from the original designated spot ( the endline ). No time shall come off the game or shot clock. Rule 4-70.4, 7-5.2 and 7-2.2

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Art Hyland
Sec. Ed., NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committee

[Adam]

Good grief.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here's the official word from Mr. Hyland:

Interesting. It seems the Men's and Women's Rules Editors need to get together on this one given what Debbie Williamson told me a few weeks ago.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here's the official word from Mr. Hyland:

Thanks Scrappy.

I hope they address the bolded part of 4-70-4:

Art. 4. A throw-in shall end when a passed ball touches or is legally touched by an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

What exactly does that mean? I read it as 'touching' and 'causing the ball to be OOB' to be simultaneous acts and it contradicts the interpretation Mr. Hyland says the NCAA will put forth.

[wfd21]

This was posted on the NCAA Womens site on 2/21/12 by Deb Williamson:
Quote:


2/21/12 Throw-in violations (Rule 9-5.1.b)
The interpretation of 9-5.1.b has been that when a player is standing on a boundary line or straddling
a boundary line when she catches a passed ball from a thrower-in, that player has caused the ball to
be out of bounds and the subsequent throw-in would be on the sideline. The following graphic was
used in the 2007-2008 clinics to illustrate this interpretation:
Throw-in Ends
• When a player, who is located on
the playing court, touches and
causes the ball to be out of bounds,
This throw-in
has ended and
the new throw-in
spot will be on the
sideline
The clock does
not start
This interpretation has been in effect for many years and will remain in effect until the Rules
Committee reconsiders its position in May 2012. A recommendation will be made to alter this
interpretation, but in the meantime, officials are expected to continue using the current
interpretation as illustrated above. This interpretation is not be confused with a situation in which a
passed ball from a thrower-in doesn’t touch any player who has a foot on the playing court. In that
case, the throw-in spot will be the original throw-in spot.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here's the official word from Mr. Hyland:

Scrapper:

Thanks for the update. The only problem with Mr. Hyland's interpretation is this: It is incorrect by rule. All he had to do is read NCAA R7-S4-S70-A4, which states (I have highlight in bold red the section of NCAA R4-S70-A4 that proves his intepretion incorrect):

"A throw-in shall end when a passed ball touches or is legally touched by
an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation."

NCAA R4-S70-A4 is equivalent to NFHS R4-S42-A5b which states:

"The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in R7-S5-A7."

It really irratates me when people who should know better cannot read and comprehend a rule that has been in place for well over 45 years.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Scrapper:

Thanks for the update. The only problem with Mr. Hyland's interpretation is this: It is incorrect by rule. All he had to do is read NCAA R7-S4-S70-A4, which states (I have highlight in bold red the section of NCAA R4-S70-A4 that proves his intepretion incorrect):

"A throw-in shall end when a passed ball touches or is legally touched by
an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation."

NCAA R4-S70-A4 is equivalent to NFHS R4-S42-A5b which states:

"The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds, except as in R7-S5-A7."

It really irratates me when people who should know better cannot read and comprehend a rule that has been in place for well over 45 years.

MTD, Sr.

Wow, deja vu'. Have you joined M&M's company?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Scrapper:

Thanks for the update. The only problem with Mr. Hyland's interpretation is this: It is incorrect by rule. All he had to do is read NCAA R7-S4-S70-A4, which states (I have highlight in bold red the section of NCAA R4-S70-A4 that proves his intepretion incorrect):

"A throw-in shall end when a passed ball touches or is legally touched by
an inbounds player or when a player, who is located on the playing court, touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds or when the throw-in team commits a throw-in violation."

The problem with what you've put in red is that the definition of "playing court" in Rule 4 is the inbounds part of the floor. So it doesn't apply to (and hence the throw-in doesn't legally end) a player who catches the throw-in pass while having out of bounds status.

BNR has, IMHO, correctly identified the part of the rule that needs cleaning up if it is to match this interp.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The problem with what you've put in red is that the definition of "playing court" in Rule 4 is the inbounds part of the floor. So it doesn't apply to (and hence the throw-in doesn't legally end) a player who catches the throw-in pass while having out of bounds status.

BNR has, IMHO, correctly identified the part of the rule that needs cleaning up if it is to match this interp.

With that definition of the playing court, this part of the rule is nonsensical.