player control

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

How is the thrower supposed to commit a player-control foul?

Not as hard as you might think.

Although as soon as he touches the defender in bounds, he commits a throw in violation. So, the only way I'm calling the foul is if he goes intentional or flagrant.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not as hard as you might think.

Although as soon as he touches the defender in bounds, he commits a throw in violation. So, the only way I'm calling the foul is if he goes intentional or flagrant.

Actually there's nothing under the list of throw-in violations in Rule 9 which deals with the thrower touching the defender, only the other way around. He/She can't leave the designated spot nor can they walk the ball onto the court so by the time they did either of those things they wouldn't have player control anymore.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Actually there's nothing under the list of throw-in violations in Rule 9 which deals with the thrower touching the defender, only the other way around. He/She can't leave the designated spot nor can they walk the ball onto the court so by the time they did either of those things they wouldn't have player control anymore.

Read the note in 9-2-10. Also case 9.2.5B.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Read the note in 9-2-10. Also case 9.2.5B.

Didn't we just have a pretty lengthy thread about thrower-in A1 touching A2 with the ball and then pulling it back?

I thought the consensus was no violation. It appears Snags has some caseplays that would point to a violation now.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Toren

Didn't we just have a pretty lengthy thread about thrower-in A1 touching A2 with the ball and then pulling it back?

I thought the consensus was no violation. It appears Snags has some caseplays that would point to a violation now.

As I commented in that thread: the rationale given in the case for calling this a violation is that the player carried the ball into the court, which is absurd. Touching a player inbounds does not give the thrower inbounds status.

I'm fine with calling this a violation, but it will need to be defined independently.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As I commented in that thread: the rationale given in the case for calling this a violation is that the player carried the ball into the court, which is absurd. Touching a player inbounds does not give the thrower inbounds status.

I'm fine with calling this a violation, but it will need to be defined independently.

Right. While it's hard for a near hand-off to occur without player-to-player contact, I see no reason to extend this peculiar rule to the play from the other thread. If A1 doesn't actually touch another player on the court before he releases the throw in pass; he hasn't done anything wrong.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Right. While it's hard for a near hand-off to occur without player-to-player contact, I see no reason to extend this peculiar rule to the play from the other thread. If A1 doesn't actually touch another player on the court before he releases the throw in pass; he hasn't done anything wrong.

Fine distinction. Ball v Hand I suppose. I can live with that. Putting it into my database that way.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Actually there's nothing under the list of throw-in violations in Rule 9 which deals with the thrower touching the defender, only the other way around. He/She can't leave the designated spot nor can they walk the ball onto the court so by the time they did either of those things they wouldn't have player control anymore.

9.2.5 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance.

RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul shall be called. (9-2-10 Note)

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

9.2.5 SITUATION B: A1 has the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and is being guarded by B1. Before releasing the ball, A1 loses his/her balance, reaches out and puts his/her hand on B1 (who is inbounds) in an effort to regain his/her balance.

RULING: Throw-in violation by A1. A1 is required to remain out of bounds until releasing the throw-in pass. When A1 touches an inbounds player, he/she has inbound status. However, if the contact on B1 is illegal, a personal foul shall be called. (9-2-10 Note)

My mistake for not reading that thoroughly. But to get back to the original question, I still can't see how a thrower can commit a player-control foul.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

My mistake for not reading that thoroughly. But to get back to the original question, I still can't see how a thrower can commit a player-control foul.

Thrower A1 pushes B1 in the chest to create more room for the throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Thrower A1 pushes B1 in the chest to create more room for the throw-in.

Yep, I'd call the PC foul on this rather than the violation. Same concept as calling the foul when the defender reaches across the plane and fouls the thrower.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Thrower A1 pushes B1 in the chest to create more room for the throw-in.

So this is me becoming the Devil's Advocate: if the thrower and defender are that close that the thrower is able to push the defender, one of two things has happened:

1. The thrower has moved too far forward during the throw-in, which is a violation (I'm basing this on the throw-in taking place at any time other than after a made/awarded field goal or free throw).
2. The defender has moved too close to the thrower, in which case it's a warning or technical foul on the defense.

I can't see it happening in a situation where a team can run the endline - though I guess it could - because the thrower can run away from the defender.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

So this is me becoming the Devil's Advocate: if the thrower and defender are that close that the thrower is able to push the defender, one of two things has happened:

1. The thrower has moved too far forward during the throw-in, which is a violation (I'm basing this on the throw-in taking place at any time other than after a made/awarded field goal or free throw).
2. The defender has moved too close to the thrower, in which case it's a warning or technical foul on the defense.

I can't see it happening in a situation where a team can run the endline - though I guess it could - because the thrower can run away from the defender.

It'd be very easy for my situation to occur...the defender can get right up to the throw-in plane, and the thrower can get close enough and still reach out without stepping inbounds. You just never see this play because a thrower's natural inclination when pressured like above is to step back away from the pressure rather than try to create more space.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

So this is me becoming the Devil's Advocate: if the thrower and defender are that close that the thrower is able to push the defender, one of two things has happened:

1. The thrower has moved too far forward during the throw-in, which is a violation (I'm basing this on the throw-in taking place at any time other than after a made/awarded field goal or free throw).
2. The defender has moved too close to the thrower, in which case it's a warning or technical foul on the defense.

False choice. In this case, only one player is prohibited from breaking the plane. And even if he breaks it, we're told to call the foul if contact is the immediate result of the violation.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

1. The thrower has moved too far forward during the throw-in, which is a violation (I'm basing this on the throw-in taking place at any time other than after a made/awarded field goal or free throw).

Why is this a violation? The thrower can only move 3 feet horizontally but they can move as far back or up as they want. Am I wrong?