Not facing the opponent

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The verticality rule says that must have LGP to have the right to the space above them....whether by jumping or raising their arms.

So you're also saying that if B1 is standing facing the basket with his arms raised in anticipation of a rebound, and A1 drives in, and in the process of taking a shot contacts B1's totally stationary arm, it can be a foul on B1?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So you're also saying that if B1 is standing facing the basket with his arms raised in anticipation of a rebound, and A1 drives in, and in the process of taking a shot contacts B1's totally stationary arm, it can be a foul on B1?

As the rule is written, it can be.

Will I call it? Maybe not.

The rule is pretty clear about when verticality applies and when such actions are allowed (only with LGP).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As the rule is written, it can be.

Will I call it? Maybe not.

The rule is pretty clear about when verticality applies and when such actions are allowed (only with LGP).

Verticality explains all these things that one can do that are legal. If a stationary defender jumps straight up and is contacted by the offensive player, where's the part which says this is illegal?

[Rob1968]

Wow! This thread is the result of yet another case of poor wording by the editors of the Rules Book.
It seems to me that in 4-23 - Guarding, and 4-37 - Rebounding, and 4-45 - Verticality, there are two subjects addressed, in very sloppily structured paragraphs, or Articles.
4-23-1, third sentence, deals with players on the playing court, without reference to LGP: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
The following sentence introduces that statement's relation to actions of opponents: "A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have legal guarding position if contact occurs." Such action can occur whether or not the player is guarding an opponent.
4-23-2 defines an intial LGP, which is a new subject. It is not intended to define a "player position".

4-37-1 defines rebounding.
4-37-2 describes obtaining or maintaining legal rebounding position.
4-37-2 d. states: "To obtain or maintain legal rebounding position, a player may not: Violate the principle of verticality."
And 4-37-3 reiterates the statement in 4-23-1, regarding player position. Thus, in rebounding, guarding is not neccessarily involved, but verticality is.

4-45 begins with "Verticality applies to a legal (player) position." It is
not a statement about LGP.
Then, Articles 1-7 deal with Verticality, in reference to opponents, and thus, LGP.
Although it is an extrapolation, the common understanding of Verticality is that it applies to a player having the right to his place when in contact with the floor, and when jumping within his vertical area. The notion that when a player,/defender jumps "within his vertical area" he forfeits his right to verticality, seems anathema to the generally accepted legal/illegal actions of players, whether they are, at that moment, in offensive or defensive attitude.
Thus, Cameron, I respectfully disagree with your stance on the subject.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Wow! This thread is the result of yet another case of poor wording by the editors of the Rules Book.

I've always said that.

NBA and FIBA made it cleared in their rules books that a player, with or without LGP, is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

I've always said that.

NBA and FIBA made it cleared in their rules books that a player, with or without LGP, is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders.

But, just for the sake of clarity, does that position apply to an airborne player?

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But, just for the sake of clarity, does that position apply to an airborne player?

This is what FIBA rules say:

"During the game, each player has the right to occupy any position (cylinder) on the playing court not already occupied by an opponent.

This principle protects the space on the floor which he occupies and the space above him when he jumps vertically within that space."

And this what NBA rules say:

"A player is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders, as in post play or when double-teaming in pressing tactics."

FIBA's verticality rules clearly apply to an airborne player.

NBA's verticality rules kind of suggest that it apply to an airborne player, but who knows sure?

One thing for sure is that in the NBA and FIBA a defender doesn't need LGP to be in a vertical position.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

The notion that when a player,/defender jumps "within his vertical area" he forfeits his right to verticality, seems anathema to the generally accepted legal/illegal actions of players, whether they are, at that moment, in offensive or defensive attitude.
Thus, Cameron, I respectfully disagree with your stance on the subject.

I didn't say they always forfeit when they jump, only when they've not earned the right to it by having LGP (in the case of guarding) or LRP (rebounding).

In the generally accepted actions, the players RARELY have their backs to the opponent involved in the play....they are usually facing them.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I didn't say they always forfeit when they jump, only when they've not earned the right to it by having LGP (in the case of guarding) or LRP (rebounding).

In the generally accepted actions, the players RARELY have their backs to the opponent involved in the play....they are usually facing them.

I think this is the reason that this does not draw more attention in the wording of the rules. But I still don't see anything which says that a player without LGP who leaves his feet could not then still draw a charge if the offensive player initiates the contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is the reason that this does not draw more attention in the wording of the rules. But I still don't see anything which says that a player without LGP who leaves his feet could not then still draw a charge if the offensive player initiates the contact.

He's entitled to a spot on the playing court. Not to the air space above it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... I still don't see anything which says that a player without LGP who leaves his feet could not then still draw a charge if the offensive player initiates the contact.

I didn't say that either. I said they don't have the right to the space above them if they've not earned it by getting proper position (i.e., LGP).

If the contact is in the torso, the jump doesn't change the point of contact. However, if they jump and make contact with a shooter's arms above them, they will only be able to do so legally if they have obtained LGP.

But, if they had LGP, they can legally jump up such that it results in contact in the space above them and not be guilty of a foul.