Terrible lack of awareness

[pizanno]

JRut-

Okay, if not about trust, I guess I'm not sure what your point is. I agree that ultimately, it's our butts in the ringer. Out here, assignors expect us to include table crews in our decision making process when the outcome of the game is on the line. We tell them in locker-room pre-games, "you're part of our crew. bring information if it can prevent a mistake". Whether we exhausted all options in an effort to "get it right" when we kick one is often the teaching point. Perhaps a regional, philosophical difference?

Conspiracy theories, media or fan accusations, etc. are not factors I consider when ruling on plays. Didn't see the play you mentioned. Besides, I'm a NFC fan...and am still in mourning for my Niners collapse!

Peace, as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pizanno

JRut-

Okay, if not about trust, I guess I'm not sure what your point is. I agree that ultimately, it's our butts in the ringer. Out here, assignors expect us to include table crews in our decision making process when the outcome of the game is on the line. We tell them in locker-room pre-games, "you're part of our crew. bring information if it can prevent a mistake". Whether we exhausted all options in an effort to "get it right" when we kick one is often the teaching point. Perhaps a regional, philosophical difference?

Again I am happy for you that your assignor asks you to do these things, but I have never worked for anyone that put this on us to go to a table crew to know if a ball hit the rim anymore than we would go to the table crew to know if we had a travel. This is what drives me crazy about the "get it right" mantra that many have. It is not about getting it right if you are not the ones that get it right. This is the crew's responsibility or we do not need to be on the game. Why not ask a fan what they think too? The table's responsiblity does not extent do judgment calls on the court IMO and I would not put them in that position if for no other reason than to take them out of being accused of anything.

Originally Posted by pizanno

Conspiracy theories, media or fan accusations, etc. are not factors I consider when ruling on plays. Didn't see the play you mentioned. Besides, I'm a NFC fan...and am still in mourning for my Niners collapse!

Well there was an accusation that the scoreboard operator deliberately put up the wrong down and distance near the end of the game to fool with the Ravens and as a result had the Ravens doing things based on what the scoreboard said rather than what the table said. Now how does this apply to basketball? The scoreboard in football is similar to basketball, it is for show other than the time on the clock. And the official down and distance is kept on the field. But that does not stop the media or media people making a fuss about it and it took even Coach Harbaugh (of the Ravens of course) to respond to that accusation about them being confused based on the scoreboard. And not that this situation is exactly the same, but think what the back story would be if the table told them something that was perceived in the interest of the home team and video showed differently? I just would not want to put them in that situation and would not want to be questioned as to why I screwed up and listened to someone with a possible interest in the game. If you would that is fine with me, but we as officials need to get this right, not rely on the table for things like this. I do not rely on them for other judgments in the game, why this?

Peace

[pizanno]

The rule book states shot-clock operators duties are to reset when ball hits ring or flange. Sometimes that involves their judgement.

Let's imagine you're the L, I'm C. A1 drives to basket a bit out of control from my primary, attempts to draw foul from B1 while throwing up a prayer. Players contact in lane, both end up on floor, we deem marginal contact (no fouls), and missed shot leads to tie up in key. We close with jump ball mechanic. Possession arrow with Team A (visitors).

We look up and see the shot clock has been reset. Our trail comes in and says "hey, guys, I'm not sure that ball hit the rim, but I really don't have definitive knowledge. Did either of you see ball hit rim?" I got nothing. You say you have nothing.

Would you go to the shot-clock operator and tell them to return shot clock to the point of jump ball because our crew didn't see ball hit rim? Or do you ask the shot-clock operator "did you reset it because you're positive it hit rim?" and go with the reset if the answer is "yes".

I understand the idea of living and dying with what we see/don't see, so I'm honestly good either way. You're the crew chief, so what do we have?

[JRutledge]

Well if I am a crew chief I want my fellow officials to do their jobs. They make calls based on what they see and if I did not see something I am going with their judgment. If they missed something, they miss something. Then again I usually work with people that offer some opinion or would know either way. This is why this play is kind of shocking to me and probably others. I cannot believe that no one saw this play considering a shot hitting the rim is a normal look for officials at the college level. Even the Lead can see that even slightly. And with the horn someone I would think notice the situation. You have to before the play be aware of the disparity in the clock and the shot clock and know that a shot might be something you have to be aware of with the game on the line. I guess what I am saying is going to the table should not be an "out" to make you feel better if you miss something that is your job.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Lotto

As others have mentioned, NCAA officials can only use replay if there is a court side monitor. However, it's not clear that this play would be reviewable even if a monitor were available.

Rule 2-13.5.c says: The officials shall not use such available equipment for judgment calls such as: Determine whether a violation occurred except in 2-13.3.a.2.

And 2-13.3.a.2 says: Officials shall use such available equipment in the following situations: When there is a reading of zeros on the game clock at the end of any period, after making a call on the playing court, and when necessary to determine the outcome of the game in the following situations: Determine whether a shot-clock violation occurred before the reading of zeros on the game clock.

So, if the issue was whether the ball hit the rim, the monitor may not be used. It also seems that the intent of 2-13.3.a.2 is a situation where the shot-clock violation occurs so near the end of the game so that there is a doubt as to which occurred first, which is also not the case here.

One odd thing here -- the LED lights usually don't light up when the shot-clock runs down to 0. (Do they?) Why did they light up in this situation?

It's clear: the crew wouldn't have been able to use the monitor in this situation to deal with the shot-clock issue. A fellow official of mine e-mailed Debbie Williamson from the NCAA and she said it appeared the crew judged there was no shot-clock violation twice: once when the play happened and once again when they huddled after time expired.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

It's clear: the crew wouldn't have been able to use the monitor in this situation to deal with the shot-clock issue. A fellow official of mine e-mailed Debbie Williamson from the NCAA and she said it appeared the crew judged there was no shot-clock violation twice: once when the play happened and once again when they huddled after time expired.

I have yet to speak with the official directly, but I worked a game this past weekend where this play came up in discussion. One of my partners from Saturday said that he spoke with the trail on this play, and said that he was "beating himself up" over this play. My partner said that the trail said that he had no angle on whether or not the shot hit the rim due to the fact that he was watching the shooter come back to the floor after taking her shot.

He also said that when they got together they were discussing two things: whether the original shot hit the rim, and whether the final shot was before the final horn. Then he said that when they pulled the coaches together, they explained the situation to them (much like you can see from the video).

Here's the kicker though... the trail on the play said that the visiting coach never even asked whether or not the original shot hit the rim! That was never in question from the coaches. They were only worried about the last shot leaving the shooter's hands before the final horn.

In my opinion, the C HAS to have an idea as to whether the shot hits the rim or not. The L can have some idea, but I'm not putting that on him...

Like I said, I'm hearing this second-hand, but it came from a very reliable source... and I will be working with one of the officials on this game this coming Thursday. If I find anything else out, I will be sure to let you all know.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

In my opinion, the C HAS to have an idea as to whether the shot hits the rim or not. The L can have some idea, but I'm not putting that on him...

We had a similar play in our game on Friday, but it was near the end of the first half, and in a blowout. I was L. The first shot, taken from the outside clearly missed the rim. The offense got the rebound and put up a lay-up. I assumed (yeah, I know) that it hit the rim, but it didn't. Horn went off. C knew that it was a shot clock violation, I knew the time that should be left, and we finished the 3.6 (iirc) seconds of the half.

We've all not know for sure whether a shot hit the rim when it's taken with, say, 15 seconds left. But, the outside officials need to get it when the shot is taken with the clock about to expire.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

I have yet to speak with the official directly, but I worked a game this past weekend where this play came up in discussion. One of my partners from Saturday said that he spoke with the trail on this play, and said that he was "beating himself up" over this play. My partner said that the trail said that he had no angle on whether or not the shot hit the rim due to the fact that he was watching the shooter come back to the floor after taking her shot.

He also said that when they got together they were discussing two things: whether the original shot hit the rim, and whether the final shot was before the final horn. Then he said that when they pulled the coaches together, they explained the situation to them (much like you can see from the video).

Here's the kicker though... the trail on the play said that the visiting coach never even asked whether or not the original shot hit the rim! That was never in question from the coaches. They were only worried about the last shot leaving the shooter's hands before the final horn.

In my opinion, the C HAS to have an idea as to whether the shot hits the rim or not. The L can have some idea, but I'm not putting that on him...

Like I said, I'm hearing this second-hand, but it came from a very reliable source... and I will be working with one of the officials on this game this coming Thursday. If I find anything else out, I will be sure to let you all know.

Regardless of what was discussed when the coaches were summoned, the visiting coach certainly was questioning the lack of the shot clock violation during the officials' pow-wow.

[Referee24.7]

Bottom line, its a crew error and someone (anyone -- lead, trail, center), has to get that, and anyone who gets that is a GAME-SAVER. . .

That's really, really bad

[jeschmit]

Well, I spoke with the trail on the play this past week and here what he had to say:

In summary, he still believes that while he was on the court, the ball definitely hit the rim and came straight down to the offensive player. He said that they angle he had when the shot was taken, he couldn't have come out with anything on this play as to him it looked like the ball did hit the rim. He then said that after that happened, they let the game continue and finish with the basket being counted to end the game. After the final horn sounded, he (along with the other two officials) noticed that there was great confusion going on between the benches and players, so they had to get together to have a little conversation.

The L on the play (who was also the R), lead the discussion and asked about two things: did the first shot hit the rim, and did the last shot leave the shooter's hand prior to the final horn sounding. While on the court, all three believed that the first shot did hit the rim, so they thought they solved that problem easily. Then they discussed the final shot. Most of the discussion in the pow wow was about the final shot. When they made their decision about the final shot, they got the coaches together, discussed what they were going to rule, and counted the basket. Game over.

After they got into the locker room, the C on the play started to rethink how things had played out on the floor. She said that she, "thinks [she] let them down." This is in regards to the original shot not hitting the rim. The T on the play confirmed to her that they made the right call, and that there was nothing to worry about. However, a fellow official (who had seen the video) called the T on the play on his way home and told him that they missed the call. S*** happens.

Then, he pulled out 8 8X12 still pictures of the video, and he showed me that the ball did in fact miss the rim. He said that he's carried them in his bag since he's been able to see the video. Definitely misses the rim by no less than 3" on the pictures. He definitely has spent some time thinking about this play.

He then brought something to my attention which I hadn't noticed before. If you watch the video, you will see that the C on the play never signals the final shot good or no good, and she doesn't even have a whistle to end the half/game. Basically, the T on the play said that she got, "caught up in the moment" and failed to keep her concentration at that point of the game. Needless to say, this is one play that was badly missed, and all three of them now know it. However, its time to learn from it and move on.

Bottom line, you have to have high concentration, and make high certainty calls near the end of games... especially if it is a close game.

If anyone has anymore questions about this play, let me know and I'll give you more information if I have it.

[bob jenkins]

NCAA D-1: Miss the call, go to the monito, get it right, everyone is "happy" (or at least satisfied).

NCAA D-3: Miss the call, no monitor, post it on you tube, everyone excoriates the officials.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Ok-this looks like a clear cut violation on tape.I want to address Rut's comments about the table and having a vested outcome in the game.As a table crew our first obligation is to the proper administration of the game regardless of outcome and that is a guideline myself and the student scorers who work for me follow to the letter.If this is our game we'll give help if asked to the best of our abilities based on this section of the NFHS Timer's instructions:

4. If a quarter or extra period ends and:
a. The timer has been unable to make an official hear the signal,
the timer must immediately notify the official.
b. The timing signal fails or is not heard by an official, the timer
must be prepared to advise the referee as to whether the ball
was in flight when time expired, or whether a foul occurred
before or after the period had ended.
c. The timing signal is not heard by the officials, testimony of the
timer may determine whether a score shall count or a foul shall
be charged, unless the referee has information which would
alter the situation.

If that help leads to my officials getting it right and us losing a game then so be it.jeschmit-it doesn't even look like the crew talked about this play with their table crew and asked for their help.Is that assumption correct from what you have heard?

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by jeschmit

He then brought something to my attention which I hadn't noticed before. If you watch the video, you will see that the C on the play never signals the final shot good or no good, and she doesn't even have a whistle to end the half/game. Basically, the T on the play said that she got, "caught up in the moment" and failed to keep her concentration at that point of the game. Needless to say, this is one play that was badly missed, and all three of them now know it. However, its time to learn from it and move on.

It wasn't C's call to make, she's table side.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by SAJ

It wasn't C's call to make, she's table side.

Table side has nothing to do with it... C has last second shot in NCAAW.

[constable]

Inexcusable if you ask me.

With a stoppage at that juncture the crew should have been communicating how much time was left on the shot and game clocks.

I'm not well versed in NCAA mechanics. In FIBA, the outside officials have responsibility for the flight of the ball and related issues. That being said, with such an egregious error the lead should have stepped up.

Rarely do the officials cost a team the game but in this case they did.