Dunk in pregame

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by constable

If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference?

Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.

We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player.


Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age.


Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario:

We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal).

Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up.

Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, ), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball.

NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC.

My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai.

The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, ) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, ) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in case of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position.

I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.

We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player.


Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age.


Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario:

We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal).

Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up.

Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, ), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball.

NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC.

My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai.

The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, ) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, ) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in casde of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position.

I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls.

MTD, Sr.

While researching the Lack of Sufficient Action Rule (old rule question ( before 1980 )) I found a Play in the 1971-72 NBCUSC Casebook and it directly addresses the play being discussed.

Please keep in mind that the rule regarding the submission of rosters and starters was different: Roster (10 minutes before the start of the game) and Starters (3 minutes before the start of the game). And the Game Officials jurisdiction started 30 minutes before the start of the game for both boys'/girls' high school and men's college (it still is 30 minutes for men's college).

Casebook PLAY 409D: Twenty minutes prior to game startingt time, during the pre-game warm-up, several squad members of team A each dunk once with the officials, as well as the coach, as witnesses. When the coach submits his squad list to the scorer he deliberately omits the names of the violators. RULING: Even though the offenders' names are not included on the squad list, team A is assessed a technical foul for each act of dunking and the game starts with team B attempting the free throws. Anyone who participates in the pre-game warm-up is part of the squad, regardless of whether his name apperars on the squad list (R10-S6j).

1971-72 NBCUSC R10-S6j is now NFHS R10-S3-A3 and NCAA Men's R10-S6-A1e.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. To my knowledge this Casebook Play has never been superceded by another one in either the NFHS Casebook or NCAA Men's Casebook and Approved Rulings.

P.P.S. This Casebook Play still only gets us halfway home. When it was added to the Casebook the TF was charged only to the team; it did not count toward the offender's five PFs and TFs; it did not count toward a team's foul total in a half; and DTF and IDTF charged to HCs did not exist yet.

I do have one problem with CB 409D, as it would have been applied in 1971-72, and that is, the HC could then add those players to the Scorebook later in the game and his team would be charged a TF for each new name added to the Scorebook, which begs the question: When we add each player's name into the Scorebook, do we record that each player already has a TF for his pre-game dunk? I would say yes.

CB 409D is silent as to whether the dunkers' names should be added to the Team Roster at the Ten Minute Mark. I interpret this silence to mean that the dunker's names are to be added to the Team Roster at the Ten Minute Mark.

Therefore, to apply CB 409D to our current play, we would charge the team with a TF for the player's dunk, charge the HC with an IDTF, and if the HC wants to add the player's name to the Scorebook later in the game I would record a TF with the player's name for the pregame dunk.

Therefore, to apply CB 409D to our current play, we would charge A1 (the dunker) with a DTF which would count toward Team A's seven and ten fouls for the first half, and Team A's HC is charged with a IDTF because of A1's DTF. And, A1's name should be added to Team A's Team Roster.

P.P.P.S. I have rewritten the last two paragraphs in P.P.S. to blue.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am sure that many of you are familiar with the Preseason Basketball Guide that NASO/Referee publishes in cooperation with NFHS. For a few years now, NASO/Referee publishes a special OhioHSAA Edition where the last four pages are for OhioHSAA officials only.

In this year's OhioHSAA Edition contains a section entitled: "Say It Ain't So". The sections contains six "myths" about the rules. My Comment now addresses Myth #6, but first let me review the play being this thread as been discussing. Previously in this thread (see Comment #83 on Page 6 of this thread dated Jan. 22/Sun.(01:38pmEST), 2012):

"Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdicton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age."

I further stated in Comment #135 on Page 9 (Mar. 18/Sun.(06:23pmEDT), 2012) that Hank's ruling was not only valid in Ohio but is a valid NFHS and NCAA Men's (at the time) ruling because:

"[1971-72 NBCUSC] Casebook Play 409D: Twenty minutes prior to game startingt time, during the pre-game warm-up, several squad members of team A each dunk once with the officials, as well as the coach, as witnesses. When the coach submits his squad list to the scorer he deliberately omits the names of the violators. RULING: Even though the offenders' names are not included on the squad list, team A is assessed a technical foul for each act of dunking and the game starts with team B attempting the free throws. Anyone who participates in the pre-game warm-up is part of the squad, regardless of whether his name apperars on the squad list (R10-S6j).

1971-72 NBCUSC R10-S6j is now [2011-12] NFHS R10-S3-A3 and [2012-12] NCAA Men's R10-S6-A1e."

And now for "Myth #6: Apparent varsity players are shooting around during halftime of the JV contest. One or more of the students are observed dunking during the intermission. The varsity officials notice and penalize those players at the start of the varsity game. Fact #6: At this point in time, while it my be obvious these are varsity players, they are not part of the team participating in the JV game and are not subject to the dunking prohibition. This is the responsibility of game management and they should be left to address this mater if they wish. Varsity officials do not have any jurisdiction at this time and should also defer this matter to game management. Likewise, these students are also not under the jurisdiction of the JV officials and we would not them getting involved/penalizing either."

I bring this up because it is a classic example of people who should now better not doing their due diligence and there by publishing in correct information.

I am getting too old for this nonsense!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... this year's Ohio HSAA Edition contains a section entitled: "Say It Ain't So". The sections contains six "myths" about the rules ... And now for "Myth #6: Apparent varsity players are shooting around during halftime of the JV contest. One or more of the students are observed dunking during the intermission. The varsity officials notice and penalize those players at the start of the varsity game. Fact #6: At this point in time, while it my be obvious these are varsity players, they are not part of the team participating in the JV game and are not subject to the dunking prohibition. This is the responsibility of game management and they should be left to address this mater if they wish. Varsity officials do not have any jurisdiction at this time and should also defer this matter to game management. Likewise, these students are also not under the jurisdiction of the JV officials and we would not them getting involved/penalizing either."

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Please share with us the other five myths.

Is one of them the myth that Columbus discovered America? Or that Marie Antoinette said "Let them eat cake". Or that Newton was hit on the head with an apple?

[SC Official]

It will be a cold day in hell before I whack a kid for dunking at halftime of the game before his.

Mainly because I’m in the dressing room during halftime and wouldn’t be on the court to see it happen. Secondarily because my jurisdiction for the second game hasn’t begun yet. (In South Carolina the varsity girls and boys play on the same night and we work DHs.)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SC Official

It will be a cold day in hell before I whack a kid for dunking at halftime of the game before his.

Mainly because I’m in the dressing room during halftime and wouldn’t be on the court to see it happen. Secondarily because my jurisdiction for the second game hasn’t begun yet. (In South Carolina the varsity girls and boys play on the same night and we work DHs.)

I agree, but the JV officials had better whack him.

MTD, Sr.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I agree, but the JV officials had better whack him.

MTD, Sr.

For what? The JV officials aren’t the varsity officials and have no authority to penalize something for the game following theirs that they won’t be calling.

For clarity’s sake, JV typically plays on a different night than varsity here.

[constable]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by constable

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

I believe this has been stated numerous times in the thread. If a person, any person, is dressed like the team, and warming up with the team, some of us consider that an affiliation.

Coach: "I didn't even know he was out there!"

Official: "It is your business to know who is out there."

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by constable

I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Good citation from rockyroad. Bench personnel are "part of, or affiliated with a team". The crux of this thread is, what does it mean to be "part of, or affiliated with a team" ? Note that is says "a" team, singular, not "teams", plural. Many of us, including me, believe that there are six teams when we walk into a site, freshman, junior varsity, and varsity, home, and visitors. Others, like rockyroad, believe that there are only two teams there, home and visitors. We can debate this until the cows come home to roost, but unless we get an interpretation from the NFHS, or from our various state interscholastic sports governing bodies, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Billy, Camron, and a few others are staying on point, the Original Play involves a player wearing a Varsity uniform participating in the Jr. Varsity warmups. We are NOT discussing fans being on the court and dunking the ball. Fans are NOT Bench Personnel; if a fan comes onto the court and dunks the ball, get game management to take care of business; this is not a TF.

I would suggest that my post (#83 on Page #6 of this thread) explains best how to handle the OP being discussed.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

The team/coach made the choice when they permitted him/her to participate in warm-ups. Call him/her an assistant coach, statistician, or trainer if you must, but if they're on the floor participating with the team, the team assumes responsibility for his/her actions.

I doubt they'd allow a parent to participate...but if they did, that parent just became part of the coaching staff/bench personnel for as long as they're on the playing court or bench.

Plus, I've yet to ever see a formal list of people that are team members or bench personnel until the 10-minute mark and, even then, it is not required that they list everyone, only those that may play....certainly not any one of the coaching staff or other personnel.