"That's a foul!"

[APG]

Originally Posted by bainsey

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

Who says you're right though?

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

And again, Juggling passed on this, too. That very kid didn't shut up until Juggling issued the T.

Crew to Bainsey: sure is a quiet gym
Bainsey to crew: yea, but those crickets are being disrespectful to me
Crew: hey partner, get it offer with....T'em and toss'em

"Lighten up Francis"

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're right. Do what's right. But if you're swimming against the stream, it might not be the stream that's wrong.

Or as my friend Dave would say, "When it's you against the world, bet the world."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There we go. That's lucid.

Context and tone indeed matter. If this sentence came from a coach that I knew well, and it came from a humouous angle, there's no way in hell I'm penalizing that. From a kid I don't know, though? (And I don't know any of them.) I don't see how any context would make this permissible for a kid to talk to an official that way.

Bear in mind, too, that Juggling passed on penalizing this sentence. Often times, passing comes off as condoning, so what happened a bit later? The kid mouthed off again. This is why you have to nip those imperative sentences in the bud.

FWIW, "That's a foul!" very seldom gets a second thought from me. It's a declarative sentence, so it's a statement of opinion (or perceived fact?) that's not directed at anyone. I could see it as the last straw of an ABS T, but that's about it.

My response to the first statement would have been "that's enough" or "that will be your last comment" or something to that effect if I felt the kid were being a smart-a$$. And I would make sure his coach or several of teammates heard me say it. Then if anything else comes out his mouth it would be an easy T.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The problem is, and you've done this before, is that you apply your personal standard to unsporting conduct and then refer to it as "what's right".

Fair enough. Here's where we separate fact from opinion.

What's right is that what was spoken is an imperative sentence. As we all know (but perhaps some have forgotten), an imperative sentence is a defined as an order or command, directed at someone (with "you" understood, and therefore typically left out of the sentence). To say that this is not an order is to ignore the definition. This is black and white.

What's opinion is whether an imperative sentence from a kid a T-able offense. If I'm reading everyone else correctly, the general opinion is that it's technically an order, but so what? Or, you have to take into context what the kid said. (I won't dispute the subjectivity in this area.)

Or, it's not an order at all. This is the objective point that I dispute.

I'm the only one here who believes an imperative sentence from a kid is a T-able offense. That's fine. But, like the rules and their definitions we discuss here, our language has rules, too. If you choose not to T up a kid for giving you an order, that's one thing. Just don't tell me it's not an order.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

. .. Just don't tell me it's not an order.

Now who's ordering who? or is that whom?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

Now who's ordering who? or is that whom?

"Whom." T me up, 7!

[rockyroad]

If the kid says "Pull your head out of your a$$, ref", that would be a T'able imperative.

"C'mon and lighten up on the calls a bit" is not a T'able imperative to anyone else who has commented on this thread. It's whining from a kid on the bench.

Again, tell him to knock it off and move on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'm the only one here who believes an imperative sentence from a kid is a T-able offense. That's fine. But, like the rules and their definitions we discuss here, our language has rules, too. If you choose not to T up a kid for giving you an order, that's one thing. Just don't tell me it's not an order.

Oh FCOL.

When I tell my wife, "get me a glass of water," is that an order?
When I tell my commanding officer, "give me a second," is that an order?
When a coach says, "call the foul," is that an order?
When a player says, "give me a timeout," is that an order?


Sentence structure isn't nearly as important as context, tone, intent, etc. You know it, but you're digging in your heels on this. So be it.

If I think a player is actually trying to give me an order, sure, I'll consider a T. But this ain't it.

[APG]

Player: "Give me a timeout."
Bainsey: *Technical foul*

According to what you said, you would T this kind up since this is an imperative from a kid to you. Now, I don't really think you would whack this kid would you (assuming he said it in a nonchalant way)?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When I tell my wife, "get me a glass of water," is that an order?
When I tell my commanding officer, "give me a second," is that an order?
When a coach says, "call the foul," is that an order?
When a player says, "give me a timeout," is that an order?

YES, all of the above. By the standards of language, an order does not require subordination.

And for the record, I've never heard a kid say "give me a time-out." They've just yelled "time out!"

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bainsey

YES, all of the above. By the standards of language, an order does not require subordination.

And for the record, I've never heard a kid say "give me a time-out." They've just yelled "time out!"

I get the feeling you'd be a tough partner to work with. Just my opinion.

[APG]

Originally Posted by bainsey

And for the record, I've never heard a kid say "give me a time-out." They've just yelled "time out!"

Originally Posted by bainsey

Seriously? I can't think of a single circumstance where I'd allow a player to give an official an order.

Consider it a hypothetical then...are you going to T up his request...given to you in the form of an order?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

YES, all of the above. By the standards of language, an order does not require subordination.

And for the record, I've never heard a kid say "give me a time-out." They've just yelled "time out!"

So,

A1 has the ball in transition, only one player to beat. As he goes by B1, B1 hacks A1's arm. It slows A1 down slightly, but not enough to really affect his shot and he makes a wide open layup.

After his shot, B calls timeout. A1 approaches you to ask why you didn't call a foul.

"Because you played through it and got a wide open shot."

Player quietly responds, "call the foul."

You calling the T?

He's not ordering you to do anything. It's a request, with the "please" or "I wish you would" implied by the tone and context. I can guarantee you, I'm not giving any orders to my command structure, and if they took it as such I'd be in trouble.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can guarantee you, I'm not giving any orders to my command structure, and if they took it as such I'd be in trouble.

Right. I believe we've discussed this before. You may or may not respect the person, but you respect the role.

How is that any different from our roles as officials?