"That's a foul!"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Doesn't the fact that the vast majority of those responding to this see it the same way as Rockyroad does say anything at all to you?

Not just vast majority....unless I've missed someone, it was unanimous among those responding.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know as well as anyone that communication is more than words. Context matters. Tone matters.

There we go. That's lucid.

Context and tone indeed matter. If this sentence came from a coach that I knew well, and it came from a humouous angle, there's no way in hell I'm penalizing that. From a kid I don't know, though? (And I don't know any of them.) I don't see how any context would make this permissible for a kid to talk to an official that way.

Bear in mind, too, that Juggling passed on penalizing this sentence. Often times, passing comes off as condoning, so what happened a bit later? The kid mouthed off again. This is why you have to nip those imperative sentences in the bud.

FWIW, "That's a foul!" very seldom gets a second thought from me. It's a declarative sentence, so it's a statement of opinion (or perceived fact?) that's not directed at anyone. I could see it as the last straw of an ABS T, but that's about it.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not just vast majority....unless I've missed someone, it was unanimous among those responding.

That's what I thought - was just covering my butt in case there was one rogue "believer"...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There we go. That's lucid.

Context and tone indeed matter. If this sentence came from a coach that I knew well, and it came from a humouous angle, there's no way in hell I'm penalizing that. From a kid I don't know, though? (And I don't know any of them.) I don't see how any context would make this permissible for a kid to talk to an official that way.

Bear in mind, too, that Juggling passed on penalizing this sentence. Often times, passing comes off as condoning, so what happened a bit later? The kid mouthed off again. This is why you have to nip those imperative sentences in the bud.

FWIW, "That's a foul!" very seldom gets a second thought from me. It's a declarative sentence, so it's a statement of opinion (or perceived fact?) that's not directed at anyone. I could see it as the last straw of an ABS T, but that's about it.

1) there's a whole range of responses between ignoring and T-ing.

2) I, for one, read the statement as along the lines of "(I wish the ref would) lighten up on the calls a bit" or "(Would you please) lighten up on the calls a bit?"

[SamIAm]

Perhaps you guys should lighten up on Bainsey.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2) I, for one, read the statement as along the lines of "(I wish the ref would) lighten up on the calls a bit" or "(Would you please) lighten up on the calls a bit?"

Or "We're getting killed by 50 points and you're calling a foul on every possession - I have a test in 5 hours now that it's 2:00am due to your over-officiating this game. Can you please give us a break? I want to go home and forget this debacle of a game."

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) there's a whole range of responses between ignoring and T-ing.

Which is why I said - way back in post #15 - to tell the kid to knock it off and move on. Going straight to a T and then justifying it by saying the kid was giving me an order and I need to make him respect my authority is simply ridiculous.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) there's a whole range of responses between ignoring and T-ing.

2) I, for one, read the statement as along the lines of "(I wish the ref would) lighten up on the calls a bit" or "(Would you please) lighten up on the calls a bit?"

1. Fully agree.

2. I think herein lies our divide. I can only read/hear what's in front on me. What you inserted parenthetically makes a vast difference, and I sure wouldn't penalize that.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Good grief...it's not an order. It's a 17 year old kid whining because his team is getting their butts kicked. Tell him to knock it off and move on.

Would love to hear the conversation with the Coach...

Coach: "What did he say?"

Official: "He told me to lighten up on the calls a little bit."

Coach: "You whacked him for THAT?"

Official: "Absolutely Coach. He can't order me around like that."

Hmmm...that's not going to end well at all.

Oh Contrare, it ends well for bainsey's fellow officials

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

1. Fully agree.

2. I think herein lies our divide. I can only read/hear what's in front on me. What you inserted parenthetically makes a vast difference, and I sure wouldn't penalize that.

You're the only one reading this as some sort of order. Feel free to do as you wish in your games, but I can guarantee you if that was my justification for going straight to a T, I'd be on a strict diet of YMCA games for two years.

Me, if it comes from the bench, the coach gets a quick word about keeping a reign on his bench. If it's from a player on the court, a quick word will do.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're the only one reading this as some sort of order.

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

And again, Juggling passed on this, too. That very kid didn't shut up until Juggling issued the T.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bainsey

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

This is BS. You clearly are the only one in this thread who thinks your take on this scenario is "right". Not everything is black and white - certainly not on subjective interpretations of something someone said. It's not often when everyone disagrees with one person's take...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

And again, Juggling passed on this, too. That very kid didn't shut up until Juggling issued the T.

You're right. Do what's right. But if you're swimming against the stream, it might not be the stream that's wrong.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bainsey

You have to do what's right, Snaqs, not what's popular. We're officials, not fans.

The problem is, and you've done this before, is that you apply your personal standard to unsporting conduct and then refer to it as "what's right".

Out here, I'd be stuck working kindergarten ball if I T'd up some of these things.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm reminded of the phrase that begins with "When your only tool is a hammer...."

I'm reminded of the phrase that says something about "you'd argue with a possum".

FTR, a chuckle at best.