No T for me

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Girls JV last night, I am asst. coach. Close game but I leave the bench after the 3rd quarter to get my varsity ready.
Come back out of the locker room to a tie score. Sit in the stands opposite table and benches.

Home team makes a FT to go up by one under 30 seconds to play. We (visitors) shoot, miss, home going the other way. I don't know why, but home runs their offense and takes some wild shot attempt on the first pass. Good for us though. We get the rebound and get fouled with 10.6 seconds. B1 is shooting 1-1.

The first FT wedges between the iron and backboard. Arrow is pointing to home team. So, A1 on the endline inbounds and 4 seconds go off the clock and we get a held ball with B2 and A2. Our ball under our basket now with 6 seconds to go, right? Wrong. R1 lines up the HOME team. I'm now yelling "IT'S BLUE BALL BLUE BALL, THE ARROW IS WRONG!!!" to the trail (2 man).

He stops play before the inbound happens and both referees confer at the table. After a minute or so, they set back up with the home team getting the inbound again. Lose by 1.

I was soooooo tempted to go back around to the bench and try to straighten it out when they started to line up but did not want to risk a T.

If I would have made it around the endline in time, would anyone here have T'd me up? (Our JV coach didn't know the rule either)

After the game, I did head to towards the referee door to ask what they discussed at the table. (they were still in the gym and there were NO issues during the game). I was too late, the Varsity officials were already giving them the business!

Did you explain why the arrow was wrong?

IIWY, I'd write into the official's association. That's a huge error at the end of the game.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Did you explain why the arrow was wrong?

IIWY, I'd write into the official's association. That's a huge error at the end of the game.

No, they were confering at the table so I thought they were getting it right. I did not want to be "that fan" at the end of a JV girls game since I was coaching next.

I'm especially glad now as the referees up for our game were watching...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CoachP

No, they were confering at the table so I thought they were getting it right. I did not want to be "that fan" at the end of a JV girls game since I was coaching next.

I'm especially glad now as the referees up for our game were watching...

If you had been "that fan", maybe they would have gotten it right.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If you had been "that fan", maybe they would have gotten it right.

Yeahhhh.....but then again, a T seals the deal for home team.

Maybe if I didn't spend so much time reading this stuff here.....you guys are rubbing off on me.

[mbyron]

It was a JV game. You said your piece, and the varsity officials were on it. Let it go.

If you're on the court yelling at me and I know you're a coach, I absolutely T you up. Doesn't matter what I've done wrong, there's a penalty for that behavior.

[Eastshire]

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

Didn't state in the OP, but talking with the V refs during our warmups, it was not an arrow issue to the JV refs. The JV refs gave the ball to Home team on the wedged ball as a FT violation ...(not an AP). So therefore the arrow was never changed. So in their mind the arrow was right.

Had I been on the bench, I "might" have saved the day by getting us one more under the basket play.....

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Didn't state in the OP, but talking with the V refs during our warmups, it was not an arrow issue to the JV refs. The JV refs gave the ball to Home team on the wedged ball as a FT violation ...(not an AP). So therefore the arrow was never changed. So in their mind the arrow was right.

Had I been on the bench, I "might" have saved the day by getting us one more under the basket play.....

Ah, that's a bigger whoops. It's not a correctable error and it's not a scorekeeping error; so unless, you caught them at the point of the stuck ball, they can't fix it anyway.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

In this situation there would be no need to ask the official scorer anything. 4 seconds prior there was a held ball (ball lodged between rim/backboard). An official who can't remember who received that AP throw-in should not be working JV games, IMO. This was obviously a case of not knowing the rules in regards to the ball being lodged between backboard/rim, not a case of not knowing who had the arrow.

Also, we do not HAVE to go with an arrow that is pointed in the wrong direction.


Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this situation there would be no need to ask the official scorer anything. 4 seconds prior there was a held ball (ball lodged between rim/backboard). An official who can't remember who received that AP throw-in should not be working JV games, IMO. This was obviously a case of not knowing the rules in regards to the ball being lodged between backboard/rim, not a case of not knowing who had the arrow.

Also, we do not HAVE to go with an arrow that is pointed in the wrong direction.

If, you know the arrow is wrong, no you don't have to go with it. I disagree on remembering the AP arrow though, there can be a lot going on in between the last throw and the point a question is brought up even if only 4 seconds came off the clock. Ideally they'd remember, but I won't fault them for not remembering.

In, the OP though we have a different situation where the rule was misapplied and the arrow is in fact pointing in the correct direction given the error in rules application as an AP throw-in was not conducted for the stuck ball even though it should have been.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If, you know the arrow is wrong, no you don't have to go with it. I disagree on remembering the AP arrow though, there can be a lot going on in between the last throw and the point a question is brought up even if only 4 seconds came off the clock. Ideally they'd remember, but I won't fault them for not remembering.

...

How can they not remember? They 2nd held ball happens immediately after the AP throw-in. IMO, working a JV game an official should know this.

Assuming the 1st held ball was administered correctly I am most definitely faulting any JV official who can't remember who should get the arrow on a held ball that happens on the ensuing possession.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

Good question. I can see the ball resting on the back flange, but a free throw to get wedged without another player touching it?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Good question. I can see the ball resting on the back flange, but a free throw to get wedged without another player touching it?

It's happened.

And, while I agree they should remember, we often don't think to remember until something happens that gets us in trouble. Plus, here, maybe they did remember -- the arrow, as it turns out, wasn't the issue.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

the arrow, as it turns out, wasn't the issue.

Correct ....as I found out later. The arrow was not an issue to them. They gave home team the ball back as a FT violation. I did not know that until after the game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Correct ....as I found out later. The arrow was not an issue to them. They gave home team the ball back as a FT violation. I did not know that until after the game.

Chances are, if you'd tried to slip behind the bench to address it, you'd have got stuck with a T. Not much you can do but let it play out.