No T for me

Eastshire · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 07:47am

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

CoachP · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 07:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

Didn't state in the OP, but talking with the V refs during our warmups, it was not an arrow issue to the JV refs. The JV refs gave the ball to Home team on the wedged ball as a FT violation ...(not an AP). So therefore the arrow was never changed. So in their mind the arrow was right.

Had I been on the bench, I "might" have saved the day by getting us one more under the basket play.....

Eastshire · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 08:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachP

Didn't state in the OP, but talking with the V refs during our warmups, it was not an arrow issue to the JV refs. The JV refs gave the ball to Home team on the wedged ball as a FT violation ...(not an AP). So therefore the arrow was never changed. So in their mind the arrow was right.

Had I been on the bench, I "might" have saved the day by getting us one more under the basket play.....

Ah, that's a bigger whoops. It's not a correctable error and it's not a scorekeeping error; so unless, you caught them at the point of the stuck ball, they can't fix it anyway.

Raymond · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire

As long as you're being civil, I don't see you getting Ted here, but at this point I don't know that there's any change you could have effected. If I've been over to the table already, I've asked the official scorer who should have the arrow and if he changed it after the free throw. He's given me his best answer and unless I have definitive knowledge of who I gave the last AP throw-in to (and even with only 4 seconds elapsing you can feel pretty unsure about the arrow) you have to go with the arrow.

The take-away is to remember to confirm the arrow changing after the AP throw-in.

In this situation there would be no need to ask the official scorer anything. 4 seconds prior there was a held ball (ball lodged between rim/backboard). An official who can't remember who received that AP throw-in should not be working JV games, IMO. This was obviously a case of not knowing the rules in regards to the ball being lodged between backboard/rim, not a case of not knowing who had the arrow.

Also, we do not HAVE to go with an arrow that is pointed in the wrong direction.

Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

Eastshire · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this situation there would be no need to ask the official scorer anything. 4 seconds prior there was a held ball (ball lodged between rim/backboard). An official who can't remember who received that AP throw-in should not be working JV games, IMO. This was obviously a case of not knowing the rules in regards to the ball being lodged between backboard/rim, not a case of not knowing who had the arrow.

Also, we do not HAVE to go with an arrow that is pointed in the wrong direction.

If, you know the arrow is wrong, no you don't have to go with it. I disagree on remembering the AP arrow though, there can be a lot going on in between the last throw and the point a question is brought up even if only 4 seconds came off the clock. Ideally they'd remember, but I won't fault them for not remembering.

In, the OP though we have a different situation where the rule was misapplied and the arrow is in fact pointing in the correct direction given the error in rules application as an AP throw-in was not conducted for the stuck ball even though it should have been.

Raymond · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If, you know the arrow is wrong, no you don't have to go with it. I disagree on remembering the AP arrow though, there can be a lot going on in between the last throw and the point a question is brought up even if only 4 seconds came off the clock. Ideally they'd remember, but I won't fault them for not remembering.

...

How can they not remember? They 2nd held ball happens immediately after the AP throw-in. IMO, working a JV game an official should know this.

Assuming the 1st held ball was administered correctly I am most definitely faulting any JV official who can't remember who should get the arrow on a held ball that happens on the ensuing possession.

Indianaref · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

Good question. I can see the ball resting on the back flange, but a free throw to get wedged without another player touching it?

bob jenkins · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Good question. I can see the ball resting on the back flange, but a free throw to get wedged without another player touching it?

It's happened.

And, while I agree they should remember, we often don't think to remember until something happens that gets us in trouble. Plus, here, maybe they did remember -- the arrow, as it turns out, wasn't the issue.

CoachP · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

the arrow, as it turns out, wasn't the issue.

Correct ....as I found out later. The arrow was not an issue to them. They gave home team the ball back as a FT violation. I did not know that until after the game.

Adam · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachP

Correct ....as I found out later. The arrow was not an issue to them. They gave home team the ball back as a FT violation. I did not know that until after the game.

Chances are, if you'd tried to slip behind the bench to address it, you'd have got stuck with a T. Not much you can do but let it play out.

CoachP · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 11:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Chances are, if you'd tried to slip behind the bench to address it, you'd have got stuck with a T. Not much you can do but let it play out.

Then I would have made it 2 T's. Then the officials would have to write a report explaining that they blew a rule then had to toss an assistant.

**notice all the big grins.....

26 Year Gap · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 06:07pm

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;812251]It's happened.

And, while I agree they should remember, we often don't think to remember until something happens that gets us in trouble. Plus, here, maybe they did remember -- the arrow, as it turns out, wasn't the issue.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Not knowing the rule on FT violations was the issue.

CoachP · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

Funniest thing I've seen for a while that's for sure...

28.5 inch ball, perfect arc, perfect spot I guess. Right to a dead thud stop.

Maybe Camron has time to Trig out a diagram.

Loudwhistle2 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachP

Funniest thing I've seen for a while that's for sure...

28.5 inch ball, perfect arc, perfect spot I guess. Right to a dead thud stop.

Maybe Camron has time to Trig out a diagram.

Definitely an odd one. I saw one even stranger 6 years ago. Boys Varsity, three point shot attempted from the left side of the court. The ball sticks between the rim and back board on the FAR side of the rim!! WTH?? Never seen that before. That's why I love this game, its always different than the others!

fullor30 · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2012, 11:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In this situation there would be no need to ask the official scorer anything. 4 seconds prior there was a held ball (ball lodged between rim/backboard). An official who can't remember who received that AP throw-in should not be working JV games, IMO. This was obviously a case of not knowing the rules in regards to the ball being lodged between backboard/rim, not a case of not knowing who had the arrow.

Also, we do not HAVE to go with an arrow that is pointed in the wrong direction.

Coach P, how the hell did the ball get lodged on a free throw?

My first thought.