Judging a "judgement" call

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why even participate? What purpose does it serve other than making you look better at your partner's expense?

+1

And it doesnt really make them look better. Because the same coach is talking about you just like he talks about the incorrect calling official! They are not our friends, so whether they are right or wrong, loyalty to our partners for 32 minutes should be the goal.

[tref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have two thoughts on the OP:

If you are working a varsity game with a partner who doesn't know this rule, chances are there were other problems as well.

It would have to be something really blatant before I would stop the game to question my partner's traveling call.

After an obvious IC the game is already stopped & re-gaining possession of an airball is really blatant, no?

[Tio]

Originally Posted by rickman5

It happened to me again a few days ago where one of my partners misapplied a very common knowledge rule.

Big cross-county rivalry game (same region) and we were in the Boys Varsity game. I'm trail table side and my partner is at the C. A1 drives to that basketbal and attempts a try. The try does not hit anything and he grabs his own rebound. Players look around expecting a whistle and my partner hits it and signals traveling. I figure, with a veteran official, he had him taking steps on the rebound so I don't say anything and we play on.

A couple trips down the court later he explains to the head coach why he called the travel. He tells the coach that the ball didn't touch rim. The coach knows the rule and immediately calls him out on it. My partner continues to plead his case that he cannot do that. We have some sort of switch so I'm now by the coach and he tells me the situation. I hate to throw my partner under the bus but I had to tell the coach he was right and we would talk about it during the next dead ball. Coach then gets on to me for letting him misapply the rule. I explained that I thought he had a travel after he caught the rebound.

Next dead ball I talk to my partner about the rule. He acted like it was the first time he had heard that. I had to show him the rule book at halftime. My question is when is it ok to come in and question a fellow official's "judgement" call (seemed to me he had a travel)? Would anyone have handled this situation any differently?

Nothing you can do on this... you did the right thing. Hope he gets it right next time. Unfortunately, some guys don't study the rules and that will hurt their careers, not yours.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

The coach already knows he was wrong...What do you do? Play stupid as well?

"Coach, I didn't see the whole play. I'll ask my partner about it at halftime."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

After an obvious IC the game is already stopped & re-gaining possession of an airball is really blatant, no?

Not necessarily. If you have a clear view of the play, including his feet, sure. But that's not likely in a two-man game, or even three if there are a lot of players around the rebounder.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

...4. If coach tells me what partner says (and it happens to be incorrect and opposite of what I just agreed with) I would tell coach I will talk with partner but it's obvious he is incorrect.

...

My #1 rule of officiating: Never believe what a coach claims another official said.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by tref

After an obvious IC the game is already stopped & re-gaining possession of an airball is really blatant, no?

Not in the OP, apparently.

I figure, with a veteran official, he had him taking steps on the rebound.....

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not necessarily. If you have a clear view of the play, including his feet, sure. But that's not likely in a two-man game, or even three if there are a lot of players around the rebounder.

Originally Posted by rickman5

A1 drives to that basketbal and attempts a try. The try does not hit anything and he grabs his own rebound.

On a drive to the rack, I dont know where else the officials are looking. Generally, thats where all the action areas are. IMO, if you dont have the ball & there are no engaged matchups in your primary then you should be officiating where you could get hurt next... on plays to the basket, that would be in the paint where the obvious airball was shot & subsequently recovered by the shooter.

I have worked with "ECA guys" (exclusive coverage area) who work their 3rd whether players are there or not, so I understand how it could be missed. I've also called fouls from the L & partners arent able to help with if the ball went in or not, so I can understand how it could be missed.

I guess thats why we savor those nights where we have a sharp crew of 3 & they all have crew chief tendencies! Those have been my easiest & most enjoyable games to work.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

On a drive to the rack, I dont know where else the officials are looking. Generally, thats where all the action areas are. IMO, if you dont have the ball & there are no engaged matchups in your primary then you should be officiating where you could get hurt next... on plays to the basket, that would be in the paint where the obvious airball was shot & subsequently recovered by the shooter.

I have worked with "ECA guys" (exclusive coverage area) who work their 3rd whether players are there or not, so I understand how it could be missed. I've also called fouls from the L & partners arent able to help with if the ball went in or not, so I can understand how it could be missed.

I guess thats why we savor those nights where we have a sharp crew of 3 & they all have crew chief tendencies! Those have been my easiest & most enjoyable games to work.

Actually, in a 2 man crew it's MORE likely for the off-official to be looking at the same place as his partner because the Trail would have had the origin of that drive and positioned himself to see the whole play.

In a 3-man crew if I'm opposite the Lead I'm less likely to be watching all that action as I would be positioned to see all the weakside activity and I would have a whole lot of bodies between me and A1 catching his airball.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Actually, in a 2 man crew it's MORE likely for the off-official to be looking at the same place as his partner because the Trail would have had the origin of that drive and positioned himself to see the whole play.

In a 3-man crew if I'm opposite the Lead I'm less likely to be watching all that action as I would be positioned to see all the weakside activity and I would have a whole lot of bodies between me and A1 catching his airball.

While I believe that the L should get over there unless its an immediate drive off a swing pass, what you say makes good sense!
BUT depth off the endline along with pinching the paint gets a better look at both action areas.

What the heck is the T watching in your sitch? Not too often do we see guys still setting screens on drives to the basket or defenders bodying up a player at the 3 point line.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...
What the heck is the T watching in your sitch? Not too often do we see guys still setting screens on drives to the basket or defenders bodying up a player at the 3 point line.

In the OP, based on the C making the call, I'm assuming the drive originated in the C's primary and ended there likewise. As the Trail I would have long ago looked away from the ball and down into the paint, maybe even hedging towards becoming the new C if the Lead has closed down. My eyes would not have been on A1 unless he came into the paint going to the front of the rim.

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the OP, based on the C making the call, I'm assuming the drive originated in the C's primary and ended there likewise. As the Trail I would have long ago looked away from the ball and down into the paint, maybe even hedging towards becoming the new C if the Lead has closed down. My eyes would not have been on A1 unless he came into the paint going to the front of the rim.

Not on A1 but at least you would know what the ball did, no?

[Camron Rust]

If a coach asks me what a rule is, I tell him what the rule is.

I will generally not comment to them on my partner's potential misapplication of a rule.....I simply tell them I have no info on the call and they need to consult my partner about what they did or did not call.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If a coach asks me what a rule is, I tell him what the rule is. I will generally not comment to them on my partner's potential misapplication of a rule. I simply tell them I have no info on the call and they need to consult my partner about what they did or did not call.

Agree. Just take out the word, "generally".

If a coach politely asks me if a field goal from behind the arc is worth three points, I'm not going to pretend that it's not. He knows the rule, and I know the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Giving the coach the correct rule is one thing but telling him that your partner was wrong is entirely different.

I like the way you handled your situation because you're giving your partner the benefit of the doubt. If we are 100% sure, we should go in and get it right with our partner before the game is resumed. Telling a coach your partner was wrong doesn't mollify the situation, it exacerbates it.

Originally Posted by deecee

huh???

So the coach KNOWS the rule and that your partner got it wrong and asks you. What do you say or do? give him a stupid blank look?

What's wrong with, "if that's what he said, I think he misapplied the rule, I'll discuss this with him first chance I get."

Grow up man. Your partner screwed up and you're not going out of your way to put him in the spotlight. He then makes it worse by continuing to defend his position.

AKA the "he needed killin" defense.