Uncalled Cheap Shots

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fiasco

There's a difference between discouraging/penalizing/trying to prevent and actually having control over something.

We don't have control over what players do. There's really no getting around that.

We certainly do control what players do if the earlier penalties that should have been levied would have DQ'd the player. They could not have been left in the game to commit the rest of the fouls....the officials had the control to make that happen and didn't choose to exercise it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by fiasco

There's a difference between discouraging/penalizing/trying to prevent and actually having control over something.

We don't have control over what players do. There's really no getting around that.

You're confusing absolute control over a person's every action with what officials generally call "controlling a game."

If I DQ a kid who commits a flagrant foul, then I'm controlling the game. He won't be back on the floor that night, will he?

And if I call an intentional foul on a kid who uses excessive force, I'm using the tools at my disposal to control the game. Will his next foul be excessive or even flagrant? Perhaps: and then I'll address that, in order to continue to control the game.

I regard this matter as part of good officiating, independent of whether officials who fail to control their games are more likely to be sued.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're confusing absolute control over a person's every action with what officials generally call "controlling a game."

I don't think I'm confusing anything. I know what I have control over. In fact, one of my favorite sayings when I get some line from a coach or parent is "I can't control your players. I can only control the game."

[tomegun]

It seems like we are getting away from the fact that these officials didn't do a good job of calling these plays. None of them even had the awareness to discuss upgrading any of these fouls to intentional or flagrant. IMO and experience, there are boards/units/associations out there who have clueless "veterans" working games like this every night. Sad.

I also agree about the possibility to get sued. That is the society we are in.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I also agree about the possibility to get sued. That is the society we are in.

True. But there's a distinct difference between getting sued (which can happen to you any time you get out of bed) and being in a position where you can actually be sued successfully.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Gosh I get tired of this same meme being played over and over again.

Yes, there should have been intentionals and probably a flagrant foul called in that game. But who is to say calling 5 flagrant fouls would have stopped any player out on the court from committing "hard fouls"?

The officials have ZERO control over what the players do. ZERO. Officials can penalize properly and practice preventative officiating (which obviously was not done here), but ultimately the responsibility lies in the actions of the players.

We do have control who plays in the game.... ejecting #34. It is up to the kids whether they want to play or sit on the bench. I believe in blowing the whistle and that the players will adjust. Or in this case foul out or get ejected.

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by fiasco

The officials have ZERO control over what the players do. ZERO. Officials can penalize properly and practice preventative officiating (which obviously was not done here), but ultimately the responsibility lies in the actions of the players.

Officials can't stop players from doing certain things, but we can remove their opportunity to do those things by ejecting them from the game. These officials didn't take care of business, and their lack of testicular fortitude is inexcusable.

I said it before: these guys did not look like they were up to the challenge that was in front of them, and they proved through their less than appropriate actions they weren't.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ga314ref

Officials can't stop players from doing certain things, but we can remove their opportunity to do those things by ejecting them from the game. These officials didn't take care of business, and their lack of testicular fortitude is inexcusable.

We are not all powerful and even if we call something we will be scrutinized. I just do not buy it when people try to convince us that we have some say we do not have. It is just not true that we have that kind of power. The coach decides who actually plays and or he allows his kid to continue some kind of action. We can call all the fouls we like and they can ignore the consequences. There probably was only one call in this game that was shown that could be really seen as flagrant. And if we did not have a produced video claiming that was the case I doubt seriously that many here would be advocating such action in the first place.

I would like to think we have that kind of influence, but I have seen situations that take place and the officials called all the fouls in the world.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We are not all powerful and even if we call something we will be scrutinized. I just do not buy it when people try to convince us that we have some say we do not have. It is just not true that we have that kind of power. The coach decides who actually plays and or he allows his kid to continue some kind of action. We can call all the fouls we like and they can ignore the consequences. There probably was only one call in this game that was shown that could be really seen as flagrant. And if we did not have a produced video claiming that was the case I doubt seriously that many here would be advocating such action in the first place.

I would like to think we have that kind of influence, but I have seen situations that take place and the officials called all the fouls in the world.

Peace

I get what you're saying, but calling earlier fouls intentional sends a message. Closing on the foulers and using your voice sends a message. Calling the flagrant foul when it happens sends a message.

Doing nothing sends a message, too.

[JugglingReferee]

I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.

In the old Soviet Union they would have been banished to Siberia

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I wonder how the officials are feeling now that the video went viral.

To me, this is the story. There are plenty of flagrant fouls everywhere everyday and I'm guessing they are dealt with accordingly.

I'm really puzzled by a varsity crew that passes the eye test, looks like a veteran crew, good mechanics from what is shown, failed to not only make the proper calls but seemed almost blase and aloof without the least bit of concern or any visible reaction to #5 foul in particular. Not one official at least 'closed down' on #5. I'm truly miffed and would love to know what they were thinking.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I get what you're saying, but calling earlier fouls intentional sends a message. Closing on the foulers and using your voice sends a message. Calling the flagrant foul when it happens sends a message.

Doing nothing sends a message, too.

I am not talking about sending messages. Just stating that we can call whatever we want and if a coach and player do not care, then they will not care and there is not much we can do about it. Even if we call a flagrant foul there are coaches that will condone the behavior. How many times have we given a T to a player or a coach only for them to say, "I did not do anything."

I had a player used profanity and the big "F word" and I gave him a T. Do you know what the school claimed in a report later? They said he did not use any profanity and they focused on what I did based on an non-related issues with uniforms where we started the T. And I went directly to the coach who did not hear the words and told him word for word was was said by this player.

Coaches and players only behave properly if they have ethics or standards to live up to. If the coach was concerned about anything like that here the officials would not have had the opportunity to do anything like that. I doubt this kid even scored a point in the game as he showed no athleticism or ability in the game of basketball. We can send all the messages we like, if they do not have a conscious or a soul we are fighting an uphill battle.

Peace

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I get what you're saying, but calling earlier fouls intentional sends a message. Closing on the foulers and using your voice sends a message. Calling the flagrant foul when it happens sends a message.

Doing nothing sends a message, too.

Rich, you are 100% right. You can call it sending a message or whatever you want, but someone better have control of the game. Most of the time, you want to be invisible. This is a rare instance where you need to be demonstratively visible.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

(good stuff cut) Most of the time, you want to be invisible. (more good stuff cut)

No, we don't.