Uncalled Cheap Shots

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now that I know he's talking about the home coach, the AD can certainly say something to the coach. He is his boss, after all (unless it's one of those schools where the boys basketball coach has more pull than the AD).

There are a lot of schools where the board makes coaching decisions and the AD at a HS is not always the boss. That is semantics certainly to this conversation. Then if the AD can do this, why not the Superintendent? Why about the Principal? You guys really want some person coming onto the court addressing issues with a coach during the game? What if they do not like how a kid is shooting or turning over the ball? Is that appropriate for that situation too?

Once again what conversations they have off the court is their business. But during the game unless it happens by the bench and does not disrupt the game, that is going to be a problem. Just like it would be a problem if some fan approached the benches or someone came out of the stands and approached the bench (which happened somewhere in my state and was addressed by the IHSA). What they talk about in the locker room or in an office is not my concern. But if you are coming from the floor addressing an issue in the game I have a problem with that. And we have no idea what was said anyway, we are watching clips that someone produced at different times in the game, it is impossible to know what was or was not said at any time. We cannot take some poster's assumption of what was taking place in this entire game.

Peace

[bainsey]

Assuming these fouls are in chronological order in the video (and man, what a rough first half, if so), here's what I have...

Foul #1: Hard, but common. #34 White is certainly on my radar now.
Foul #2: Common. #42 white had no chance to get the ball, but at least he went for it.
Foul #3: The only reason I'm not going with intentional here is #34 was completely fooled and tried to block a shot that wasn't there. (This is not a skilled player.) I certainly won't argue if my partner went INT, though.
Foul #4: Intentional, #42 white. Juggling makes a good case for a blocking foul the other way, but when I see outstretched arms, I have a benefit of the doubt for red.
Foul #5: Flagrant. Had this been a first hard foul for anyone, I'd have intentional, but #34 would have earned a DQ for that one.
Foul #6: Common.

[biggravy]

Foul 2- couldn't help but notice the banner on the wall. "Wrestling Champs". No doubt.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again what conversations they have off the court is their business. But during the game unless it happens by the bench and does not disrupt the game, that is going to be a problem. Just like it would be a problem if some fan approached the benches or someone came out of the stands and approached the bench (which happened somewhere in my state and was addressed by the IHSA). What they talk about in the locker room or in an office is not my concern. But if you are coming from the floor addressing an issue in the game I have a problem with that. And we have no idea what was said anyway, we are watching clips that someone produced at different times in the game, it is impossible to know what was or was not said at any time. We cannot take some poster's assumption of what was taking place in this entire game.

Peace

That's part if the problem of the video, the whole picture is not known.

I was not suggesting the AD come out on the floor & pull the player off. The AD is hardly ever in the stands, he's normally either behind the scorers' table or just inside the gym near the doors.

There is enough room behind the benches where he could have approached the coach and quickly discussed the situation or at halftime, pulled the coach off to the side real quick before the coach talked to the team.

[ga314ref]

...is the near equivalent of a hockey goon. In context, foul #1 might get just treated as a hard foul, but once he commits a similar action (as he did in #3, and definitely #5), he's gone. In scenario #2, I don't understand how no push is called on White 34 (even though Red 20 got the rebound), or even a double foul on Red 20 and White 42. That was an opportunity to send a message, and the official let the rough play continue.

For me, White 34 was a big problem, and not adequately addressing his misbehavior was a mistake. Also, none of these officials looked like they were physically or attitunidally up to this type of game. White 34 stands with a smirk on his face after nearly decapitating an opponent, and you have a friendly chat with him? That's disgraceful.

If you're not willing to handle business, you shouldn't be involved in this type work.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

There is enough room behind the benches where he could have approached the coach and quickly discussed the situation or at halftime, pulled the coach off to the side real quick before the coach talked to the team.

And what if they have a confrontation? What is your suggestion then? How do you want the officials to handle that then?

Again, time and a place for everything. The officials have a job to do to. It would be inappropriate for them to be approached by an supervisor or evaluator as well during the game.

Peace

[kwv001]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Assuming these fouls are in chronological order in the video (and man, what a rough first half, if so), here's what I have...

Foul #1: Hard, but common. #34 White is certainly on my radar now.
Foul #2: Common. #42 white had no chance to get the ball, but at least he went for it.
Foul #3: The only reason I'm not going with intentional here is #34 was completely fooled and tried to block a shot that wasn't there. (This is not a skilled player.) I certainly won't argue if my partner went INT, though.
Foul #4: Intentional, #42 white. Juggling makes a good case for a blocking foul the other way, but when I see outstretched arms, I have a benefit of the doubt for red.
Foul #5: Flagrant. Had this been a first hard foul for anyone, I'd have intentional, but #34 would have earned a DQ for that one.
Foul #6: Common.

I agree with you, with one exception. Watch play #2 from the beginning. Given what transpired in play #1, I'm paying a little extra attention to 34 white. I get him for the forearm shove before the grab by 42 white.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And what if they have a confrontation? What is your suggestion then? How do you want the officials to handle that then?

AD vs Coach confrontation? What is there to handle?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And what if they have a confrontation? What is your suggestion then? How do you want the officials to handle that then?

Again, time and a place for everything. The officials have a job to do to. It would be inappropriate for them to be approached by an supervisor or evaluator as well during the game.

Peace

I offered the suggestion that at halftime the AD talk to the coach off the court near the locker rooms (offer suggestions/ideas).

Address, after the game, the situation as a whole to end the overly physical play by the player.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are a lot of schools where the board makes coaching decisions and the AD at a HS is not always the boss. That is semantics certainly to this conversation. Then if the AD can do this, why not the Superintendent? Why about the Principal? You guys really want some person coming onto the court addressing issues with a coach during the game? What if they do not like how a kid is shooting or turning over the ball? Is that appropriate for that situation too?

Once again what conversations they have off the court is their business. But during the game unless it happens by the bench and does not disrupt the game, that is going to be a problem. Just like it would be a problem if some fan approached the benches or someone came out of the stands and approached the bench (which happened somewhere in my state and was addressed by the IHSA). What they talk about in the locker room or in an office is not my concern. But if you are coming from the floor addressing an issue in the game I have a problem with that. And we have no idea what was said anyway, we are watching clips that someone produced at different times in the game, it is impossible to know what was or was not said at any time. We cannot take some poster's assumption of what was taking place in this entire game.

Peace

The officials aren't the ultimate authority at the school, even while the game is being played. Officials are hired to administer the game itself. The AD, in most cases, is responsible for the overall athletic contest. The ins and outs, the goings on. This includes fans, the band, concessions, tickets, etc etc etc.

So, in most cases, with the exception of situations you talked about earlier (having an athletics board, for example), the AD could walk out onto the court, call the contest over and tell everyone to go home if he really wanted to, and the officials really couldn't do a darn thing about it.

We work for the school, not the other way around, and the AD is who has authority over the athletic contest as a whole in almost all situations.

[just another ref]

With regard to perspective, this should be said at some point. For the commenter on the video to suggest that all 6 of the fouls in question are flagrant is laughable. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt with regard to proper terms, if he thinks all these fouls are in the same category, it's almost as bad.

Personally, I think 5 is the only one which could possibly be considered flagrant.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

AD vs Coach confrontation? What is there to handle?

Now you have a person that was not bench personnel at the bench. The reason I even mentioned this is because this actually took place in my state. There was a person to was once a coach approached a bench. This was addressed as not be appropriate because someone that is not a coach cannot get involved in coaching or giving information if they were not originally sitting on the bench. I also mention this because I was at a school recently where it was not clear that a person that said something to me was an AD (they were upset about a T we gave). This was addressed with my state as not something that should be done by anyone not associated with the team and because it has many aspects this action could cause (coaches sharing information for example away from the bench). So here I do not want anyone that is not associated with the team that is normally sitting on the benches during the game. Of course what they say in their locker room or in the ADs office is their business.

Peace

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

With regard to perspective, this should be said at some point. For the commenter on the video to suggest that all 6 of the fouls in question are flagrant is laughable. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt with regard to proper terms, if he thinks all these fouls are in the same category, it's almost as bad.

Personally, I think 5 is the only one which could possibly be considered flagrant.

The person who posted the video (as well as a couple of other featuring HHS on YouTube) has limited knowledge of the rules.

Looking at those other videos, I have a strong belief that Red 24 & Red 34 had a hand in White 34 playing physically, as they both play as if the rule is "no blood, no foul".

So the finger should not be pointed only at one team.

[rockyroad]

I have some inside information here...my son's college roommate is a Conneel grad and emailed us the link to this video yesterday along with some other info.

1)The poster of the video is a high school student at the "red" school and the two schools are fairly bitter rivals.

2)The two white players who are instigating most of the conflict in the video were both on the football team of the home school and apparently there was some sort of altercation between the two schools during the football season earlier this year.

So...what difference does any of this make? First - we can stop complaining about the person not knowing basketball rules - they don't. End of story. Second - the players are both goons and 34 at least should have been tossed. Why they weren't??? Who knows...maybe rookiedude can offer some insight as I believe the officials would be from his association.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

The officials aren't the ultimate authority at the school, even while the game is being played. Officials are hired to administer the game itself. The AD, in most cases, is responsible for the overall athletic contest. The ins and outs, the goings on. This includes fans, the band, concessions, tickets, etc etc etc.

Actually this is not always true and certainly not the case in all situations I have worked games in two states for sure. And various schools give ADs different responsibilities and they are not always in charge of the band or concessions as you stated. I remember an AD told my football crew he had no say over the concession stand and the Booster Club ran and controlled all the proceeds or what is sold.

Originally Posted by fiasco

So, in most cases, with the exception of situations you talked about earlier (having an athletics board, for example), the AD could walk out onto the court, call the contest over and tell everyone to go home if he really wanted to, and the officials really couldn't do a darn thing about it.

I said nothing about an athletic board, I said the school board. In many cases the school board is the one that makes a decision about their coaches and who is hired and who is fired. The AD might can make some recommendations, but not all school districts here give ADs that much power. I know they do not have say over how we are paid and they have no say over many extra-curricular events. I am sure this is going to vary across the country as well as how different we are all assigned and who can or cannot hire the officials.

Originally Posted by fiasco

We work for the school, not the other way around, and the AD is who has authority over the athletic contest as a whole in almost all situations.

And not every case is we work at a school. I just got through finishing working a tournament over several days that was not run by any school. It was run by an organization and the organization made all the decisions about many things as to who had access to the courts and what standards must be followed. And in most cases I am personally hired by an official's conference supervisor who sends me to a school in the conference they are hired to assign the official. The schools has to follow rules of a larger body (IHSA) or be subjected to their rules and regulation, which as an official I must follow by having a license with them or suffer similar consequences or have to answer to them for not following rules. And if an AD steps out of their role they can be written up for their actions and they will have to deal with IHSA and possibly be disciplined. So there is a protocol at least where I am from and if those standards are not followed. And if a AD came out of the stands I would not hesitate to address that issue with the IHSA and let them deal with it, like I did a few weeks ago with the actions of an AD and Principal that I found to be inappropriate (not specifically related to this kind of situation of course). The schools are not all powerful, they are members of a larger organization and agree to follow by-laws of that organization. And all parties are subjected to following those rules or they can be suspended as a school or on a lesser level be subjected to penalties and suspensions individually.

Peace