stupid kid; stupid parent

[VaTerp]

As someone who worked directly with kids for over 5 years (high school teacher, running youth sports camps, leagues) I think asking, "what did you say" and then assessing a T is TERRIBLE judgement.

You are essentially giving the kid two options: Admit to something we both already know you did and be punished for it or LIE and escape punishment. It doesnt take kids long to figure out lying is the better option for them.

Saying that you are giving a kid a chance to "back down" is just wrong. As a previous poster said its "power tripping" and a misuse of authority. If the kid lies about what he said he's not "backing down." He's lying to avoid punishment AND he's gotten away with saying something inappropriate without suffering any consequences or learning anything (other than that its ok to lie to avoid punisment).

The appropriate options IMO are to:

A) Assess T when you hear it
B) Tell the kid something to the effect of, "I didnt quite hear what you said but if I even think I hear you say something disrespectful or inappropriate again you'll be watching this game from the parking lot."

If you do make the mistake of asking, "what did you say," and the kid answers honestly I think at that point you have to "back down" and then say something like "don't say that again or I'm tossing you." Otherwise the kid learns nothing but lying and avoiding punishment is better than honesty and being punished. And it looks HIGHLY UNPROFESSIONAL to coaches and parents to see an official engage a kid in conversation and then whack them as a result.

In Varsity games if I hear a kid mumble things under their breath I either ignore it or say something like, "#12 play ball..." They usually get the message. On the rare occasion that I do a sub varsity or youth rec games, I have pretty much zero tolerance for "back talk." I find that if you don't nip it in the bud early a lot of these kids feel they can give a running commentary of the officiating and it irritates the .... out of me. I'll tell this kids before the game, "You're here to play, I'm here to officiate. Let's not get that confused." Whacking the first kid that runs his mouth usually gets the message across but I remember giving 5 Ts in 3 games on a rec league Saturday last year.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Tell the kid something to the effect of, "I didnt quite hear what you said but if I even think I hear you say something disrespectful or inappropriate again you'll be watching this game from the parking lot."

I'm honestly not sure if I think asking the OP's question is baiting or not, but is threatening a kid a better way to handle it?

Plus, what are you going to say if the kid says, "no matter what you do, I'm not watching the rest of the game from the parking lot so you are wrong with that!" The kid would be correct.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

In Varsity games if I hear a kid mumble things under their breath I either ignore it or say something like, "#12 play ball..." They usually get the message. On the rare occasion that I do a sub varsity or youth rec games, I have pretty much zero tolerance for "back talk." I find that if you don't nip it in the bud early a lot of these kids feel they can give a running commentary of the officiating and it irritates the .... out of me. I'll tell this kids before the game, "You're here to play, I'm here to officiate. Let's not get that confused." Whacking the first kid that runs his mouth usually gets the message across but I remember giving 5 Ts in 3 games on a rec league Saturday last year.

So, a 14 year old JV player can mumble things under their breath, but a 14 year old varsity player can "back talk"? Got it. Here I was thinking all high school kids should practice the proper sportsmanship.

Call me crazy, but sometimes those "rare occasions" serve two purposes: 1) get me home sooner during a long season and 2) allow me to work with a younger official. Both positives for the association in my little corner of the silver state.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I'm honestly not sure if I think asking the OP's question is baiting or not, but is threatening a kid a better way to handle it?

Plus, what are you going to say if the kid says, "no matter what you do, I'm not watching the rest of the game from the parking lot so you are wrong with that!" The kid would be correct.



So, a 14 year old JV player can mumble things under their breath, but a 14 year old varsity player can "back talk"? Got it. Here I was thinking all high school kids should practice the proper sportsmanship.

Call me crazy, but sometimes those "rare occasions" serve two purposes: 1) get me home sooner during a long season and 2) allow me to work with a younger official. Both positives for the association in my little corner of the silver state.

1) Perhaps I embellished a little bit with the "watching the game from the parking lot." I've never actually said that to a kid. And that's why I said say "something to the effect of..."

But the point, that others seem to get, is not to threaten but to let them know that there are consequences if they choose to say certain things. From experience and feel you will find out the exact words that work for you. If I did actually say "watching the game from the parking lot" and the kid responded like you said, I would just say, "ok, we'll see" and leave it at that. That's the second point. Once you engage the kid, its REALLY hard to give a T at that point unless they just say something outrageous. So again, you have to figure out what words work for you. And from observation and experience, "What did you say" rarely works for anyone.

2) Either you missed the point or I was not clear in the distinction between how I handle players talking in varsity games vs sub varsity/rec. The point is that in varsity games, I don't hear as much talk from players because they have more to lose and are more mature. Once they start talking a simple, "#12 play ball", works almost every time. At the other levels, kids are less mature and have less to lose, so simply saying, "play ball" doesnt always get the point across. So I have found that in order to nip it in the bud I have a shorter leash with these kids. If that doesnt make sense to you then so be it.


3) I don't know why you at my "rare occasions" comment as if it somehow offends you. There is nothing wrong with anybody working games on any level. It's all a matter of personal choice. I simply stated, as a matter of fact, that it is a rare occasion for me to work sub-varsity level games right now. I use to work those games all the time. In fact, that's how I fed myself as a grad student. And I will still help out our rec assigner whenever he asks and I'm able. But it's my choice to rarely work those games as I do not enjoy working them nearly as much. If you do, for whatever the reason may be, then good for you. But no need to roll your eyes in response to me stating the frequency that I work certain levels.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

1) Perhaps I embellished a little bit with the "watching the game from the parking lot." I've never actually said that to a kid. And that's why I said say "something to the effect of..."

But the point, that others seem to get, is not to threaten but to let them know that there are consequences if they choose to say certain things. From experience and feel you will find out the exact words that work for you. If I did actually say "watching the game from the parking lot" and the kid responded like you said, I would just say, "ok, we'll see" and leave it at that. That's the second point. Once you engage the kid, its REALLY hard to give a T at that point unless they just say something outrageous. So again, you have to figure out what words work for you. And from observation and experience, "What did you say" rarely works for anyone.

When you have an audience that includes young officials, people who take things literally (like me) and others, I would suggest saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Even saying something to the effect of a kid watching a game from anywhere other than the bench as a result of you throwing them out of the game isn't going to happen. Or at least it isn't supposed to. That being the case, saying something to the effect of that is just an exercise in pronouncing or typing words. Or, as us "mature" people used to say, you are talking out the side of your neck.

2) Either you missed the point or I was not clear in the distinction between how I handle players talking in varsity games vs sub varsity/rec. The point is that in varsity games, I don't hear as much talk from players because they have more to lose and are more mature. Once they start talking a simple, "#12 play ball", works almost every time. At the other levels, kids are less mature and have less to lose, so simply saying, "play ball" doesnt always get the point across. So I have found that in order to nip it in the bud I have a shorter leash with these kids. If that doesnt make sense to you then so be it.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

3) I don't know why you at my "rare occasions" comment as if it somehow offends you. There is nothing wrong with anybody working games on any level. It's all a matter of personal choice. I simply stated, as a matter of fact, that it is a rare occasion for me to work sub-varsity level games right now. I use to work those games all the time. In fact, that's how I fed myself as a grad student. And I will still help out our rec assigner whenever he asks and I'm able. But it's my choice to rarely work those games as I do not enjoy working them nearly as much. If you do, for whatever the reason may be, then good for you. But no need to roll your eyes in response to me stating the frequency that I work certain levels.

The comment doesn't offend me, but what did it add to your comments? Would your comment read the same without "rare occasion" and not run the risk of offending someone who is working their way up through the ranks? I work those games based on the needs of my crew, my work schedule, and my own desire. I assign the games for my crew so I ultimately decide if I work a freshmen game or a varsity game on any given night. The point is, your post could be read as you are too good for a sub-varsity game. Just saying...seems like it got you bent out of shape so let me take this opportunity to hit you with a

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by tomegun

When you have an audience that includes young officials, people who take things literally (like me) and others, I would suggest saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Even saying something to the effect of a kid watching a game from anywhere other than the bench as a result of you throwing them out of the game isn't going to happen. Or at least it isn't supposed to. That being the case, saying something to the effect of that is just an exercise in pronouncing or typing words. Or, as us "mature" people used to say, you are talking out the side of your neck.

The comment doesn't offend me, but what did it add to your comments? Would your comment read the same without "rare occasion" and not run the risk of offending someone who is working their way up through the ranks? I work those games based on the needs of my crew, my work schedule, and my own desire. I assign the games for my crew so I ultimately decide if I work a freshmen game or a varsity game on any given night. The point is, your post could be read as you are too good for a sub-varsity game. Just saying...seems like it got you bent out of shape so let me take this opportunity to hit you with a

I come here to learn from others and share my experience and opinions. People can take from my posts what they wish and I will continue to post what I wish without much concern for how people take things. So if someone takes something too literal or can't figure out what "something to the effect of" means then that's on them. Your talking out of the side of one's neck comment notwithstanding.

My "rare occasion" comment gave context in regards to how often I work rec/sub-varsity games. Others who work these games more frequently may have different experiences, may have found better ways to deal with players, etc. If you or anyone else reads that as I think I'm too good for those games then I really could not care less. That's a reflection of your insecurities, misconceptions, or whatever NOT me. So I also could not care less about "running the risk of offending" anyone because I don't come on here to say anything offensive. If anyone working their way up the ranks is offended by someone on an internet forum saying it's rare for them to work games at certain levels then my guess would be that individual is probably a little to thin skinned or obtuse to have long term success as an official. And bent out of shape? That's silly.

As with anything in officiating, I advise people to take information in, keep what makes sense and works for them, and either trash or mentally file the rest away. If you want to take everything literally or nitpick over things that I share in my posts then feel free to do so. I'll just be sure to try and chime in the next time you take me out of context.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I come here to learn from others and share my experience and opinions. People can take from my posts what they wish and I will continue to post what I wish without much concern for how people take things. So if someone takes something too literal or can't figure out what "something to the effect of" means then that's on them. Your talking out of the side of one's neck comment notwithstanding.

My "rare occasion" comment gave context in regards to how often I work rec/sub-varsity games. Others who work these games more frequently may have different experiences, may have found better ways to deal with players, etc. If you or anyone else reads that as I think I'm too good for those games then I really could not care less. That's a reflection of your insecurities, misconceptions, or whatever NOT me. So I also could not care less about "running the risk of offending" anyone because I don't come on here to say anything offensive. If anyone working their way up the ranks is offended by someone on an internet forum saying it's rare for them to work games at certain levels then my guess would be that individual is probably a little to thin skinned or obtuse to have long term success as an official. And bent out of shape? That's silly.

As with anything in officiating, I advise people to take information in, keep what makes sense and works for them, and either trash or mentally file the rest away. If you want to take everything literally or nitpick over things that I share in my posts then feel free to do so. I'll just be sure to try and chime in the next time you take me out of context.

Do we know each other? Seriously, assuming you work IAABO in the local area, do you work on board 12 or 134?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do we know each other? Seriously, assuming you work IAABO in the local area, do you work on board 12 or 134?

I work on the other side of the river.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

As someone who worked directly with kids for over 5 years (high school teacher, running youth sports camps, leagues) I think asking, "what did you say" and then assessing a T is TERRIBLE judgement.

You are essentially giving the kid two options: Admit to something we both already know you did and be punished for it or LIE and escape punishment. It doesnt take kids long to figure out lying is the better option for them.

Saying that you are giving a kid a chance to "back down" is just wrong. As a previous poster said its "power tripping" and a misuse of authority. If the kid lies about what he said he's not "backing down." He's lying to avoid punishment AND he's gotten away with saying something inappropriate without suffering any consequences or learning anything (other than that its ok to lie to avoid punisment).

The appropriate options IMO are to:

A) Assess T when you hear it
B) Tell the kid something to the effect of, "I didnt quite hear what you said but if I even think I hear you say something disrespectful or inappropriate again you'll be watching this game from the parking lot."

If you do make the mistake of asking, "what did you say," and the kid answers honestly I think at that point you have to "back down" and then say something like "don't say that again or I'm tossing you." Otherwise the kid learns nothing but lying and avoiding punishment is better than honesty and being punished. And it looks HIGHLY UNPROFESSIONAL to coaches and parents to see an official engage a kid in conversation and then whack them as a result.

In Varsity games if I hear a kid mumble things under their breath I either ignore it or say something like, "#12 play ball..." They usually get the message. On the rare occasion that I do a sub varsity or youth rec games, I have pretty much zero tolerance for "back talk." I find that if you don't nip it in the bud early a lot of these kids feel they can give a running commentary of the officiating and it irritates the .... out of me. I'll tell this kids before the game, "You're here to play, I'm here to officiate. Let's not get that confused." Whacking the first kid that runs his mouth usually gets the message across but I remember giving 5 Ts in 3 games on a rec league Saturday last year.

Well said. If only there was a like button here...

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by reffish

Well said. If only there was a like button here...

There is: (QUOTE) +1

And I agree.

[reffish]

Originally Posted by bainsey

there is: (quote) +1

and i agree.

+1