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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 09:07am
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I'm the new President of our official's association and have been directed by our general assembly to "force" our local big schools to take 3-person games or none at all.

What I'm looking for is what the rest of the country is doing. If you can help me out with some ammo to try and convince our local schools that we are behind the times and need to step into at least the 1990's would be appreciated.

We're seeing the normal arguments against it. Budgets are tight....official's are more worried about where they are supposed to be than actually reffing the game....the games we've had 3 haven't been better officiated...yada yada yada.

Please post this info.

State(s) you work in:
Regular season (2 or 3):
School size (2 or 3):
Post season (2 or 3):

Any thing else you think would help my (our) argument.

Thanks again.
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 09:17am
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Viking32,
Try to contact Phil Long to see what he had to do.
I am sure he'll be helpful.
Phil is in the east/central Lower Peninsula of Michigan.

With your entire association backing you, your pain will be eased.


http://mywebpages.comcast.net/phil_a...-official.html

mick
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 09:33am
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Good Luck

I'm in NYS and we do two whistle during the season and three whistle for sectional finals only. I'm also Co-Chair for our organization and on the rules interp committe. We have heard the same complaints and they are hard to overcome. In my opinion the reason coaches feel that they get a better game with two person is less off the ball stuff is called. Three person catches more of this and coaches find this as "a lousy called game". Maybe try and get them to use three person for playoffs as a trial and see how it goes. Just make sure that if you put three whistles on the floor, that they KNOW three person mechanics. Having two that do and one that doesn't, even though the one that doesn't may be one of your best officials will become evident to those folks who are looking to shoot you down. We've been doing it now for five years but still cannot crack the regular season primarily to budget restrictions, but also the fact that you need a whole heck of a lot of officails, who know three person, to start covering all of those games during the season.
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 09:41am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Viking32

State(s) you work in:
Regular season (2 or 3):
School size (2 or 3):
Post season (2 or 3):

Any thing else you think would help my (our) argument.

Thanks again.
Northern Virginia

Varsity – 3,
JV, F, and MS – 2

School size is not a factor.

Post season only for varsity.

Start doing 3 only for the varsity. In a year or 2 try to move the JV to 3. Don't pay JV the same as varsity. Sell it to the schools as the final training before varsity.
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 09:48am
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Lightbulb Unusual to see two.

In Illinois, we have 3 Person for all post season games (boy's and girl's). Most conferences use 3 Person and it is actually unusual to do a game with only 2 officials at the varsity level.

Peace
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 10:12am
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North Carolina

The NCHSAA requires ALL VARSITY GAMES to be officiated using the 3 official system. It doesn't matter the size of the school. We also use 3 man in JV games in my area, although it is not required.

It seems to be a bit of an anomaly but more states in the South require 3 man than the more "progressive" states in the North and out West. While I don't know if it's required in all these states, 3 man is used in SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, TN, and VA.
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 10:18am
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For more clarification, the state we are trying to do this in, as of right now, has 3-person for Regions and State tournament games. It also uses 3-person in the Western half of the state for regular season games. It is the Eastern half that voted unanimously against 3-person for regular season conference games.

Does anybody have any thoughts on "forcing" schools to see it our way or no way? For those of you that went through the transition to 3-person, how did you guys (gals) get it done? Did it have to come from the State Association down or did it start at the local level and work it's way up?
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 10:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Viking32
Does anybody have any thoughts on "forcing" schools to see it our way or no way? For those of you that went through the transition to 3-person, how did you guys (gals) get it done? Did it have to come from the State Association down or did it start at the local level and work it's way up?
Starts at local level in Michigan, because the MHSAA is run by the member schools. If the MHSAA was ran the schools, I think all of Michigan would be three-whistle.

Do check with Phil Long. He assigned one or two conferences to three-whistle games (apparently with Conference approval) and pulled in other conferences that did not want to get left with left-over officials.
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 03:04pm
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Cost of 2-whistle vs. 3-whistle

In replying, I'd appreciate seeing comment on the fee structure in your area/State. What do (did) 2-whistle crews get for a high school Varsity game. And what will (do) 3-whistle crews get for the same work?

TIA
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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 03:35pm
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Georgia

Yes, most of Ga uses 3-person, but the State does not mandate this (except in post-season). Basically, each region makes the determination of using 2 or 3.
I think once the coaches started seeing the difference in officiating in the post season, they started to clue in on the benefits of using 3 person all year long.




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Old Fri Apr 25, 2003, 06:34pm
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Don't switch for playoffs

It really is a budget issue in many cases, or a budget priorities issue. We don't have JV lacrosse in our county because of the cost of one additional coach (about $2,500 per season) and the refs for the games. When budgets for athletics are that tight, you won't be adding refs to bball games (and we use 2 in HS).

Another issue I would see is that I am not impressed with the overall level of refereeing in our county for public HS games. Some is very good, but I see the refs at the varsity girls level as weak on average. Not sure where you would find a third without further diluting the level of the reffing in games. Adding a ref who can't make consistent calls or who has bizarre interpretations won't make the game better.

That said, I like the extra set of eyes. Playoffs added a ref, and the quality was much better as teams advanced. That makes the extra official worthwhile.
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Old Sat Apr 26, 2003, 05:45am
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Nevada has four classifications of schools--single A through 4A, with 4A being the largest (over 1200 enrollment). The 4A Varsity games (both boys and girls) are the only games that are officiated with three-man during the regular season. The game fee is $43.75 per official. The other three classes are done with two officials during the regular season and pays each official $53.75. All games for all levels are done with three officials in the playoffs. Three man came in only four years ago in this state, mostly because the games played in Las Vegas needed it.
Hope this helps you.
I also have a couple of comments that I want to add about three-man here. Perhaps you can come up with a way to not let these things happen in your state, if you go to three whistle.
It is my belief that most officials in Nevada do not respect the areas of coverage in the three man system. Particularly the older officials who did the two man system for years fall back in the heat of the game to calling it like it is two man. This causes problems.
There is also a problem with how you train someone on the three man system since it is only used at the varsity level. What has happened is that the weaker/newer/younger officials are put on a lot of girls varsity games for the three man training. Hawks Coach is therefore exactly right on this point.
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Old Sun Apr 27, 2003, 07:20pm
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Tokyo military and International schools.

3 man for JV $33 and V $43. 2 man for non league games if the schools want it. JV $45 and V $55. We took a cut in pay for 3 man to convince the schools to take it.

Our schools aren't that big. Class A to 3A. Some bigger schools in the end of year all Asian tournament.

Actually I think our association should use 2 man. We don't have enough refs (as evidenced I did HS my first year) and we get paid more for 2 man. Sure 3 man is better reffed but not that much--and for the diffenence in pay? I prefer $100 for working 2 games as to $76 for doing 2 games. My assignor disagrees and says he wouldn't even accept a 2 man game if has still reffing. Does anyone else prefer 2 man?


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Old Mon Apr 28, 2003, 06:38pm
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In my state 3 man crews were just introduced this past bball season. Needless to say there was a lot of controversy between 2 and 3 man crews. However, this past season league assignors for each district voted to have 3 man crews for 2003-2004 district, region, and state playoff games. Regular season is still up to the hosting school whether or not to have 3 man officials. Most of the bigger schools in the state will be going to 3 man crews if they haven't already this next season.

Pay for 3 man crews is a little less compared to the 2 man crews for the obvious reason of small school budgets.

Some opinions that i've heard from coaches is that they are all for having it, but if they have a 3 man crew they don't want any missed calls. In other words they want things cleaned up on the floor including screens away from the ball. I would have to agree with them. Another reason i like it myself is that fast breaks (especially in mens varsity) are easier to cover with the 3rd person along with full court defenses.



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