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Old Tue Nov 29, 2011, 03:34pm
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Shot Clock Re-set ?

I know that the NFHS does not officially have a shot-clock rule. However, my state - NY does have it in place for some regions. Hence, the questions below:

Scenario #1: A1 takes a 'try' (shot) at the basket and B1 blocks the shot on the way up. As the ball comes down both A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the ball resulting an an AP situation (Team A has the arrow). At the same time the 'shot clock' goes off for a violation. Results: Give Team A the ball and a new shot clock?

Scenario #2: A1 takes a 'try' (shot) at the basket and does not hit the rim. As the ball comes down both A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the ball resulting an an AP situation (Team A has the arrow). At the same time the 'shot clock' goes off for a violation. Results: Give Team B the ball since there was a 'shot clock' violation and keep the arrow to Team A?

Answers and what rule are appreciated.
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Old Tue Nov 29, 2011, 03:40pm
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What normally happens when there is a held ball and the arrow favors the offense? Does the clock reset or not? I would think the officials would have to decide which came first, the held ball or the shot clock buzzer, and act accordingly.
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Old Tue Nov 29, 2011, 03:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
What normally happens when there is a held ball and the arrow favors the offense? Does the clock reset or not? I would think the officials would have to decide which came first, the held ball or the shot clock buzzer, and act accordingly.
It's not that simple. NCAA-M and NCAA-W have different rulings for this play so therefore any states using a shot clock for high school need to spell out how they want the play adjudicated:

A.R. 121. Player A1 attempts a try for goal and:
(2) After the try does not hit the ring or flange, it is simultaneously recovered by A2 and B2 for a held ball. The shot-clock horn does not sound.

RULING: (2) Since the shot-clock horn has not sounded, there is no violation.

(Men) When the try for goal was unsuccessful, the try ended. When there is no team control and a live ball is simultaneously recovered for a held ball, the alternating-possession arrow shall be used to resume play with a reset of the shot clock.

(Women) The alternating-possession arrow shall be used with no reset of the shot clock when the alternating-possession arrow favors the team who shot the ball.

(Rule 4-62, 9-11.1 and .2, 4-15.4.c, 6-3.1.a and 2-11.6.c)

BTW, I agree with the NCAA-W interpretation. If there were no held ball and Team A retained possession the shot clock wouldn't reset so I don't understand why the NCAA-M want a reset in the case of a held ball
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 04:07pm.
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Old Tue Nov 29, 2011, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk View Post
I know that the NFHS does not officially have a shot-clock rule. However, my state - NY does have it in place for some regions. Hence, the questions below:

Scenario #1: A1 takes a 'try' (shot) at the basket and B1 blocks the shot on the way up. As the ball comes down both A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the ball resulting an an AP situation (Team A has the arrow). At the same time the 'shot clock' goes off for a violation. Results: Give Team A the ball and a new shot clock?

Scenario #2: A1 takes a 'try' (shot) at the basket and does not hit the rim. As the ball comes down both A2 and B2 simultaneously grab the ball resulting an an AP situation (Team A has the arrow). At the same time the 'shot clock' goes off for a violation. Results: Give Team B the ball since there was a 'shot clock' violation and keep the arrow to Team A?

Answers and what rule are appreciated.
I don't see that there's any substantial difference between the two plays, so the ruling would (I hope) be the same.
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Old Tue Nov 29, 2011, 11:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
It's not that simple. NCAA-M and NCAA-W have different rulings for this play
This is no longer true.

Quote:
(Men) When the try for goal was unsuccessful, the try ended. When there is no team control and a live ball is simultaneously recovered for a held ball, the alternating-possession arrow shall be used to resume play with a reset of the shot clock.

(Women) The alternating-possession arrow shall be used with no reset of the shot clock when the alternating-possession arrow favors the team who shot the ball.
The Men's rule was changed this year to match the Women's rule.

Shot + No Rim + Held Ball with arrow to shooting team = No reset
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
This is no longer true.


The Men's rule was changed this year to match the Women's rule.

Shot + No Rim + Held Ball with arrow to shooting team = No reset
Thanks for the catch. Thought I had downloaded the newest Case Book.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 10:47am
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We use a shot clock in Washington

Shot clock violation in both cases!
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 11:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_ref View Post
Shot clock violation in both cases!
Do you have any published rules for the shot clock in Washington?

chseagle would have posted them with is response.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
chseagle would have posted them with is response.
And I was hoping he would have...but since you asked here it is. We also have an online rules clinic, which I can't get to you, that addresses some shot clock situation.

DUTIES OF A SHOT-CLOCK OPERATOR
2009-10 Basketball Season

Art. 1
Use a 30-second shot clock for girls or a 35-second shot clock for boys.
Art. 2


Use the shot clock for the entire game, including extra periods, except when 30/35
seconds or less remain in the quarter or extra period, in which case the shot clock
shall be turned off.
Art. 3


Control a separate timing device with a horn that shall have a sound that is distinct
and different from that of the game-clock horn.
Art. 4 Have an alternate timing device available.
Art. 5 Start the timing device when a player in bounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or when a team initially gains possession from a jump ball, an unsuccessful try for goal or a loose ball.


Art. 6

Stop the timing device and reset it:

a. When team control is re-established after the team loses possession of the ball;


b. When a foul occurs (Exceptions: Article 7.e)


c. When a held ball occurs (Exceptions: Article 7.d and .f);



d. When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange, or


A.R. 31. With the alternating-possession arrow favoring Team A and 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock, A1’s try for goal lodges between the backboard and the basket support.


RULING: Team A shall be awarded possession for a throw-in and the shot clock shall be reset.


e. When a violation occurs.


f. When an inadvertent whistle occurs and there was no player or team control at the time of the whistle.


Note: The mere touching of the ball by an opponent does not start a new shot-clock period


when the same team remains in control of the ball.


A.R. 32. A1 touches the ball that was thrown in by A2. The ball strikes the playing court and bounces until A3 gains control by dribbling. The shot-clock operator started the shot clock when A1 touched the ball. RULING: The operator was correct. Touching the ball initiates the start of the game clock in all cases and the shot clock except in a reset situation when there is less than 30/35 seconds in the quarter or extra period.


Art. 7

Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:


a. The ball is deflected out of bounds by a defensive player;


b. A player is injured or loses a contact lens;



c. A charged timeout has concluded; and


d. During team control as defined in Rule 4-12, a defensive player causes a held ball and the alternating-possession arrow favors the offensive team.


e. After a double personal foul, simultaneous personal foul or an inadvertent whistle when there is team control as defined in Rule 4-12 and as described in Rule 4-36.



A.R. 33. A1 is in the act of shooting and B1 attempts to defend the try. The official, in anticipation of a foul that was not committed, inadvertently blows his or her whistle (a) before the release of the ball; (b) after the try was in flight. A’s try for goal was unsuccessful. RULING: In (a), since A1 did not release the ball and was in control of the ball when the inadvertent whistle was blown, Team A shall be awarded the ball at a designated spot nearest to where the dead ball occurred with no reset of the shot clock. In (b), since A1’s try was in flight and there was not team control when the inadvertent whistle was blown, the ball shall be put back into
play at a designated spot nearest to where the dead ball occurred with the use of the alternating-possession arrow and the shot clock shall be reset. In (b) if the try for goal was successful, the inadvertent whistle shall be ignored and the team not credited with the score shall be awarded the ball at the end line with that team being entitled to run the end line.



f. After a simultaneous held ball as described in Rule 4-25 occurs during a throw-in and the alternating-possession arrow favors the throw-in team.




Note: The offensive team, upon regaining possession of the ball for the throw-in, shall have the unexpired time on the shot clock to attempt a try.




A.R. 34. A1 releases the ball on a try for goal, B1 partially blocks the shot and the ball (a) hits the ring or flange; (b) goes out of bounds; or (c) goes through the basket. RULING: In (a) and (c), the play is legal and the action shall continue. In (b), the official shall blow the whistle to stop play and the shot-clock operator shall stop but not reset the shot clock. On the ensuing throw-in by Team A, the game clock and shot clock shall start when the throw-in legally touches any player on the playing court.






Last edited by Scuba_ref; Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:05pm.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:03pm
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continued

Art. 8


Sound the shot-clock horn at the expiration of the shot-clock period. This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle. When the shot clock indicates :00 but the shot-clock horn has not sounded, the shot-clock time has not expired.




Art. 9.

Turn off the shot clock when a reset situation occurs and the game clock shows less time than that of a shot-clock period.


A.R. 35. There are 32 seconds on the game clock and 30 seconds on the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials call a shot-clock violation.


At the same time as the official’s whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the quarter or extra period has ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game clock? RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does



not stop play unless recognized by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-12-7). The quarter or extra period ended with the


violation.


Art. 10

Allow the timing device to continue during a loose-ball situation when the offense retains possession or when a field-goal try is attempted at the wrong basket.


Art. 11.

Allow the game officials to make the final decision when there is a doubt as to whether a score was made within the shot-clock period or whether a try for goal contacted the ring or flange.


a. When there is doubt whether a score was made within the shot-clock period or whether a try for goal contacted the ring or flange, any activity before the next live ball shall be canceled, with the exception of any flagrant foul, intentional foul or direct or indirect technical foul.


Art. 12

When an obvious mistake by the shot-clock operator has occurred in failing to set or reset the shot clock, the mistake may be corrected in the shot-clock period in which it occurred only when the referee has definite information relative to the mistake and time involved. Any activity after the mistake has been discovered shall be canceled, excluding any flagrant foul, intentional foul, or technical foul.


A.R. 36. The time on the game clock is 15:30 and the shot clock reads 0:30. A1 shoots the ball with five seconds on the shot clock and does not hit the ring or flange. The shot-clock operator, by mistake, resets the shot clock. No one notices the mistake by the shot-clock operator at this
time. When the game clock gets to 14:55, B2 commits a foul against A2. Now the officials get together and realize the shot-clock operator’s mistake. RULING: When the officials have definite knowledge as to a shot-clock operator’s mistake, it is permissible to rectify that mistake. In this case, since the officials have definite knowledge; they shall put five seconds back on the game clock, cancel the foul and award the ball to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the ball became dead.

Last edited by Scuba_ref; Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:05pm.
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Old Wed Nov 30, 2011, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Do you have any published rules for the shot clock in Washington?

chseagle would have posted them with is response.
I decided to be nice & let someone else post the WIAA Shot Clock regs.
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Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 10:34am
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I wanted to thank everyone for the posts and most importantly for the actual 'rules' references on the 're-set'.

This makes perfect sense in that in the event of the simultaneous 'held-ball'/shot clock going off & the offensive team getting the AP, then this would result in a 'shot clock' violation due to a 'no re-set' of the shot clock.

Hence, you are not rewarding the offense by giving them a new 're-set'.

Many thanks and Happy Holidays !
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