Missed it

[Rufus]

Did a girl's varsity game last night and think I talked myself out of foul call. I'm L table side and the rebound goes to the opposite side of the lane (i.e., outside my area, or so I thought at the time). A1 has good position blocking out B1 and grabs the rebound. Unfortunately I'm straightlined as she's pulling the ball down and I see the B1's arm move and A1's head come forward. I didn't see the contact, however, and A1 didn't go down, drop the ball, or grab her head.

Here are the thoughts that went through my head:

• It's opposite me and therefore C's call/no-call
• That being said if I see it go get it (the theory being it's better to have two whistles than none)
• I didn't see the contact even though there is evidence there was contact

I'm trying hard this season to concentrate on calling only what I see instead of assuming things. I guess I'm looking for judgement criteria you all use for these types of situations. Do you go on severity of the contact? Advantage/disadvantage? Contact is contact, regardless of the impact on the affected player? If the evidence is that there was contact, even if you didn't see it, do you call it?

Thanks in advance.

[Raymond]

If the play is outside of your primary then you most definitely should not be guessing.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

if the play is outside of your primary then you most definitely should not be guessing.

+1

[stiffler3492]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Did a girl's varsity game last night and think I talked myself out of foul call. I'm L table side and the rebound goes to the opposite side of the lane (i.e., outside my area, or so I thought at the time). A1 has good position blocking out B1 and grabs the rebound. Unfortunately I'm straightlined as she's pulling the ball down and I see the B1's arm move and A1's head come forward. I didn't see the contact, however, and A1 didn't go down, drop the ball, or grab her head.

Here are the thoughts that went through my head:

• It's opposite me and therefore C's call/no-call
• That being said if I see it go get it (the theory being it's better to have two whistles than none)
• I didn't see the contact even though there is evidence there was contact

I'm trying hard this season to concentrate on calling only what I see instead of assuming things. I guess I'm looking for judgement criteria you all use for these types of situations. Do you go on severity of the contact? Advantage/disadvantage? Contact is contact, regardless of the impact on the affected player? If the evidence is that there was contact, even if you didn't see it, do you call it?

Thanks in advance.

Let's say this one is in your area. I'd use advantage/disadvantage, unless the contact is severe. Since she didn't lose the ball or fall forward or anything like that, play on.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Let's say this one is in your area. I'd use advantage/disadvantage, unless the contact is severe. Since she didn't lose the ball or fall forward or anything like that, play on.

If the play is in his primary and the contact is to the head then I'm blowing my whistle, advantage or not. Blows to the head tend to leave the recipient a little upset and often can lead to retribution if there is no foul called.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the play is outside of your primary then you most definitely should not be guessing.

Agree... shouldn't be guessing in your primary either!

[Tio]

Rufus - good job laying off a play you didn't see. We should never "guess" or base a decision on only seeing a part of a play vs. the entire start,develop, finish process. As Lead, I don't think you have an open look on most rebounding plays and should defer to the trail or center depending on who has a clear lane of vision.

On this play it sounds like you did the right thing. On rebounding plays, I call fouls when there is: possession/consequence or cleanup of rough play. From your description of the play there was neither.

[twocentsworth]

agree with others....you should only call what you see. when you guess, your call accuracy decreases significantly (the NBA & NCAA-M numbers/stats kept by each officiating organizations clearly demonstrate that).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I didn't see the contact even though there is evidence there was contact

(snip)
Advantage/disadvantage? Contact is contact, regardless of the impact on the affected player? If the evidence is that there was contact, even if you didn't see it, do you call it?

If you didn't see the contact, and it didn't affect the play, I wouldn't call it. Double that if you would have to pull the call from your partner's area. Some plays, we have to trust our partner had a better look.

Contact may be contact regardless of effect, but effect normally determines whether it's a foul. Look at the definition of incidental contact.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you didn't see the contact, and it didn't affect the play, I wouldn't call it. Double that if you would have to pull the call from your partner's area. Some plays, we have to trust our partner had a better look.

Contact may be contact regardless of effect, but effect normally determines whether it's a foul. Look at the definition of incidental contact.

There are exceptions to this, but that's why they are exceptions.

The human eye isn't quick enough to see a poke to the eye, but if one happens it's pretty obvious. I'm calling a foul. I've probably done this 5 times in the last 7-8 years and nobody's said a word about it.

In 2-person, I've had several times where players will come into my primary where I'm the lead and will go over a foot/leg. It's obvious that this has happened even though I didn't see leg clipping other leg. I'm not talking about someone going down on their own going around a corner sharply, either. This probably happens a handful of times a season and, again, calling that foul yielded the right results -- missing that foul would've yielded worse results.

Anyone who says they only *ever* call what they see and never guess, not even a little bit, is, IMO, being a little short of honest. I do my best on OOB calls, for example, but not every one of those on the end line is an obvious call because of the proximity and the speed of the ball going out. Sometimes the best thing you can give them is an educated guess.

That said, the OP's play is different. There's an official there, the ball's not in the OP's primary, and for all the OP knows, the primary saw the play and decided it wasn't a foul. That's different. Trust your partners unless there's an elephant on the court.

[Adam]

Agreed, but wrt the OP, I'd have a hard time calling something in someone else's primary that I didn't see and didn't affect the play.
You're right, they're exceptions.

[Mark Padgett]

So, how long did Coach A yell at you?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

So, how long did Coach A yell at you?

I was wondering when that question would come up. Not very long at all and we moved on with life. I explained that I didn't see contact and wasn't going to call something I didn't see. Naturally that was not satisfactory but I wasn't going to get into a long discussion about it either way.

Thanks for all of your input. While I realize there are no absolutes your feedback has helped me better understand what to consider when the potential exists for calling out of primary.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I was wondering when that question would come up. Not very long at all and we moved on with life. I explained that I didn't see contact and wasn't going to call something I didn't see. Naturally that was not satisfactory but I wasn't going to get into a long discussion about it either way.

Thanks for all of your input. While I realize there are no absolutes your feedback has helped me better understand what to consider when the potential exists for calling out of primary.

I've added, "i'll try to get a better angle next time.". You only get one of these per game, though. You could also note which players blocked your view, if applicable.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I explained that I didn't see contact and wasn't going to call something I didn't see.

.......I wasn't going to get into a long discussion about it either way.

too late